Formula 1 Talk

[johnnyskids]

Mercedes has a concept they thought would keep them out in front, but instead they forgot about the porpoising. While Red Bull did not. See Mercedes engineers are relatively young, whereas Newey had designed a ground effect car before, so he knew exactly what to look for.
Aston Martin for instance poached a few aero guys from Red Bull, and that's how they made such a big improvement (and why the car looks like the 2022 Red Bull) but Mercedes' car is so radically different, that they can't just change it overnight.

It's not the zero pod design.

It's the floor. The air flowing over and around the car isn't nearly as important as the air going underneath.
If Mercedes get it right with the B spec car, they'll make a step forward.
What I think they're doing, is using this year's budget cap to introduce a car for 2024, so they basically use 2 years of cap, to develop it.

So you are basically stating that Mercedes is old and stuck in their ways, and that the only reason that Aston Martin is where they are is because they stole people from RB to make their car faster?

Sounds a lot like what someone might say if they were big RB fans. The reality is that a lot of the teams on the grid have taken cues from the RB design, the exceptions being Ferrari, Merc, and I believe Alfa Romeo (due to their ties to Ferrari, although I may be mistaken and it may be Haas instead, due to them having the same power unit as Ferrari).

I don't pretend to know the reasons why RB are so fast and why Merc is so much slower. I'm guessing it's a lot of things and not just one. For sure the floor is a big deal and likely has a major impact, as well as the side pods and other aero bits. They have pretty much stated they made a mistake in the design and are going to radically change it over the first 1/3 of the season. Could that bring them closer to RB, yes, but it could also cause other issues and thus either keeping them where they currently are, or making them worse. I was only stating that based on the comments from Merc, they seem to be the only team saying they are going to make major changes to improve. Obviously all teams are trying to improve each race, not just Merc, just not as radical as Merc is saying they are.

For the record, I'm a McLaren fan. I have no more love or hate for Merc or RB. I give credit where it's due and there is no denying that RB is well ahead of everyone, it's not just the car, the drivers are two of the best, not to mention the pit crew and strategy people.

As an F1 fan, I much prefer a season like 2021 than what last year turned out to be, and how this season is currently playing out. Even though the team I support isn't really threatening in either place, I do enjoy seeing the championships decided much later and preferably in the last race. It just makes for a more exciting season.

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[FuzzyRev]

Why did I just read this in Guenther’s voice?

Because I wrote the whole thing while literally reciting it out loud in my best Guenther voice and dialect impression ??

 

[Dannyvandelft]

I think you might be misunderstanding what I wrote and how I interpreted your initial post. You said that Perez was paranoid about Max catching him, which I took as the initial team call to Perez where they asked him to slow down a bit. Perez questioned this because he wanted to make sure that Max was getting the SAME instruction, and that it was a sly way of letting Max catch him before the end of the race.

You are correct that they both were told to slow down, but how the F would Perez know that, hence why he questioned that. Perez is justified in his paranoia in the team and Max screwing him as that's happened on more than one occasion over the past two seasons. You are also correct that they were told to push at the end, which they both did.

What conspiracy are you referring to? That Red Bull went over the cap, well that's confirmed, or that Max &/or RB have screwed Perez on multiple occasions over the past two seasons, which has also happened. The only people who refuse to admit that last one are Max fans who have blinders on, that's what I'm referring to, and you seem to be one of them in that you are trying to make it sound like Perez is scared of Max, when in fact he's scared that RB and/or Max are screwing him like they have in the past.

That "screwing over" has gone both ways. Or did you forget about Perez's convenient spin in Monaco as Max was on a pole lap in qualifying?
It's not just Max. And Perez should worry more about Ricciardo. Max was told by his engineer to keep pace, Max decided on his own to go for fastest lap. Perez could've done that too, but didn't.

So you are basically stating that Mercedes is old and stuck in their ways, and that the only reason that Aston Martin is where they are is because they stole people from RB to make their car faster?

Sounds a lot like what someone might say if they were big RB fans. The reality is that a lot of the teams on the grid have taken cues from the RB design, the exceptions being Ferrari, Merc, and I believe Alfa Romeo (due to their ties to Ferrari, although I may be mistaken and it may be Haas instead, due to them having the same power unit as Ferrari).

I don't pretend to know the reasons why RB are so fast and why Merc is so much slower. I'm guessing it's a lot of things and not just one. For sure the floor is a big deal and likely has a major impact, as well as the side pods and other aero bits. They have pretty much stated they made a mistake in the design and are going to radically change it over the first 1/3 of the season. Could that bring them closer to RB, yes, but it could also cause other issues and thus either keeping them where they currently are, or making them worse. I was only stating that based on the comments from Merc, they seem to be the only team saying they are going to make major changes to improve. Obviously all teams are trying to improve each race, not just Merc, just not as radical as Merc is saying they are.

For the record, I'm a McLaren fan. I have no more love or hate for Merc or RB. I give credit where it's due and there is no denying that RB is well ahead of everyone, it's not just the car, the drivers are two of the best, not to mention the pit crew and strategy people.

As an F1 fan, I much prefer a season like 2021 than what last year turned out to be, and how this season is currently playing out. Even though the team I support isn't really threatening in either place, I do enjoy seeing the championships decided much later and preferably in the last race. It just makes for a more exciting season.

Taking cues, and copying are very different things. The AM is almost identical to the RB18. They hired RBR personnel for one reason, to get a faster car. And they succeeded. That's not a conspiracy, but fact. Red Bull employees work at AM, their car looks like the RB18, and they're faster than last year. Undeniable.

Mercedes is stuck in their design meaning their car is so radically different, that things that work on the RB19 or AM won't work on the Merc. Simply because it's so different. Doesn't make them old, or stuck in their ways, they just need to develop things that work for their car. They can't copy anything, because nobody has that design.

2022 could've been like 2021, Ferrari had the upper hand for a long time. But you know Ferrari does what Ferrari does with their strategy. Add in a few stupid mistakes by Leclerc, and boom championship gone. RBR did what they had to do, Ferrari didn't.

 

[johnnyskids]

That "screwing over" has gone both ways. Or did you forget about Perez's convenient spin in Monaco as Max was on a pole lap in qualifying?
It's not just Max. And Perez should worry more about Ricciardo. Max was told by his engineer to keep pace, Max decided on his own to go for fastest lap. Perez could've done that too, but didn't.


Taking cues, and copying are very different things. The AM is almost identical to the RB18. They hired RBR personnel for one reason, to get a faster car. And they succeeded. That's not a conspiracy, but fact. Red Bull employees work at AM, their car looks like the RB18, and they're faster than last year. Undeniable.

Mercedes is stuck in their design meaning their car is so radically different, that things that work on the RB19 or AM won't work on the Merc. Simply because it's so different. Doesn't make them old, or stuck in their ways, they just need to develop things that work for their car. They can't copy anything, because nobody has that design.

2022 could've been like 2021, Ferrari had the upper hand for a long time. But you know Ferrari does what Ferrari does with their strategy. Add in a few stupid mistakes by Leclerc, and boom championship gone. RBR did what they had to do, Ferrari didn't.

I love how you and all Max supporters point to Perez's spin at Monaco for a reason why Max has free reign to treat him like poop. That in of itself is a conspiracy theory, you realize that right, unlike the times when RB asks Perez to let Max by when in fact it was Perez who was either on fresher tires or at a faster pace, or how about at the end of last season when Max refused to let Perez pass him so he could get much needed points in his bid for 2nd place. There are loads of examples where you don't need conspiracy theory to see how mistreated Perez has been by both Max and RB. Don't get me wrong, this happens at most teams, likely all, but we just don't get that side as the back markers rarely get that spot light.

Again, you take the opportunity to put Perez down by saying that he should be worried about his seat from Ricciardo. If you looked at all that Perez has done over the past 2+ seasons, it's clear that he isn't just a better driver than Ric, he's also a much better teammate than Ric. I highly doubt that Ric is going to snag his seat anytime soon. (you should note that I love Ric by the way, he's my favorite driver over the past few years).

2022 could have been a lot closer with Ferrari not shooting themselves in the foot, I totally agree with that statement and last season did seem like there was at least two teams fighting for first place (at least for the first 1/2 of the seasons). This season looks like it'll be wrapped up much sooner. No fault to RB, they are doing what they should to win every race they can (within the rules of course). The only reason why this season will suck is because everyone else is just too slow to compete with them.

 

[FuzzyRev]

 

[Dannyvandelft]

I love how you and all Max supporters point to Perez's spin at Monaco for a reason why Max has free reign to treat him like poop. That in of itself is a conspiracy theory, you realize that right, unlike the times when RB asks Perez to let Max by when in fact it was Perez who was either on fresher tires or at a faster pace, or how about at the end of last season when Max refused to let Perez pass him so he could get much needed points in his bid for 2nd place. There are loads of examples where you don't need conspiracy theory to see how mistreated Perez has been by both Max and RB. Don't get me wrong, this happens at most teams, likely all, but we just don't get that side as the back markers rarely get that spot light.

Again, you take the opportunity to put Perez down by saying that he should be worried about his seat from Ricciardo. If you looked at all that Perez has done over the past 2+ seasons, it's clear that he isn't just a better driver than Ric, he's also a much better teammate than Ric. I highly doubt that Ric is going to snag his seat anytime soon. (you should note that I love Ric by the way, he's my favorite driver over the past few years).

2022 could have been a lot closer with Ferrari not shooting themselves in the foot, I totally agree with that statement and last season did seem like there was at least two teams fighting for first place (at least for the first 1/2 of the seasons). This season looks like it'll be wrapped up much sooner. No fault to RB, they are doing what they should to win every race they can (within the rules of course). The only reason why this season will suck is because everyone else is just too slow to compete with them.

That's exactly my point. It happens everywhere. Just look at how Mick was treated by HAAS last year. Of course Perez's spin was intentional. Nobody ever happens to spin there all weekend, but the pole sitter JUST happens to spin while Max is up. Same as Rosberg and Schumacher "accidentally" out braking themselves in years before to clinch pole. Remember, Monaco pole is the most important one, because you can't pass. Perez is a fine driver, and there's no way that wasn't intended. And that directly resulted in Brazil. It's all connected. I think we're going to see teammate fireworks at multiple teams this year. Red Bull, Mercedes, McLaren, because Piastri was all over Norris, and so on.

 

[kaj]

I like that: what literally seems like THE DAY after I sell my Aston, they start doing well in F1.
I wanted to be proud of them so bad....
They are welcome. ?
P.S. my apologies for not getting caught up in the drama nor fueling the fire.

 

[RenRed2]

3-5 years

The new regulations for 2026 will be another opportunity to have true chance at a reset. Until this its RedBull all day every day this year and probably next unless Ferrari and or Mercedes CHOOSE to not front load development into the 2026 car with the new Power Unit(PU).

I can see RedBull running away this year fully. Maybe its a touch closer next year. 25 will be a whatever year as the new regs will dominate team thinking in a larger sense.

 

[Twundy]

A good watch for those who think the AMR23 is just a copy of the Red Bull design:


A similar strategy for success, yes. A copy, maybe not so much - definitely not to the level of the "Pink Mercedes" Racing Point a few seasons back.

 

[Dannyvandelft]

A good watch for those who think the AMR23 is just a copy of the Red Bull design:


A similar strategy for success, yes. A copy, maybe not so much - definitely not to the level of the "Pink Mercedes" Racing Point a few seasons back.

Copying is illegal, so they have to be different enough to not be considered a copy. So if they copied anything, they'd just change it in such a way that it looks different enough, without hurting performance.

 

[Dannyvandelft]

I swear those turds at the media outlets are the worst. Here on the F1 Reddit, there's a video of Jos clearly congratulating Perez, and the article below explained why Max missed the team meeting, because he was still feeling sick.

Bunch of dickheads pitting us race fans against each other.

 

[johnnyskids]

That's exactly my point. It happens everywhere. Just look at how Mick was treated by HAAS last year. Of course Perez's spin was intentional. Nobody ever happens to spin there all weekend, but the pole sitter JUST happens to spin while Max is up. Same as Rosberg and Schumacher "accidentally" out braking themselves in years before to clinch pole. Remember, Monaco pole is the most important one, because you can't pass. Perez is a fine driver, and there's no way that wasn't intended. And that directly resulted in Brazil. It's all connected. I think we're going to see teammate fireworks at multiple teams this year. Red Bull, Mercedes, McLaren, because Piastri was all over Norris, and so on.

I will admit that Perez may have spun on purpose if you admit that there is a chance that it was not intentional. Let’s be real, the only person who knows is Perez. Could there possible be a reason why he spun, of course, he was pushing hard in Q3 to stay ahead of Max and the Ferraris, sometimes when you push hard you make a mistake. Do you remember the year before, it was one of the Ferraris (I want to say Sainz, but may have been Charles), they were sitting on provisional pole with not much time left in Q3, and then he crashes, Q3 is over and he stayed on pole. Mind you in this case his car was damaged and they hoped that the car could stay in pole without having to take a penalty for changing the transmission. They did the formation lap and it was clear his car was f’d and had to retire the car before starting the race. My point is, guys can push to a point that they have an accident, especially when pole position is so important on that tight track.

What are you talking about with Schumacher, the kid kept putting the car into the walls. Why would they not push for Kmag instead?

How about yesterday when Max basically was pissed that he didn’t win the race and basically called out the team on reliability issues. You will say it’s because he’s chasing greatness, but I will say he can’t be happy for the team or thankful for his great teammate, car, and strategy team. He’s the first to complain openly. It’s a common treat of his.

I will say it again, he’s an amazing driver, but as a person and teammate, definitely not likeable. Not everyone can be Danny Ric and super likeable.

 

[Dannyvandelft]

What are you talking about with Schumacher, the kid kept putting the car into the walls. Why would they not push for Kmag instead?

How about yesterday when Max basically was pissed that he didn’t win the race and basically called out the team on reliability issues. You will say it’s because he’s chasing greatness, but I will say he can’t be happy for the team or thankful for his great teammate, car, and strategy team. He’s the first to complain openly. It’s a common treat of his.

All you have to do is watch the Japanese Grand Prix, and see how they screwed him.

That's another example of being misunderstood because he's Dutch.
He's just saying without the problem in qualifying he would've been able to fight for the win. Of course it sucks. You have the fastest car, the best strategy, but you start in 15th. Who wouldn't be pissed with that? Name me a driver, any driver, that has that but is happy coming 2nd? Absolutely no-one. They're all there to win. And every single one of them would be pissed if they could've been P1 but got P2 instead. If they didn't they wouldn't be racers.

 

[FLtrackdays]

Man, I don’t even know all the inside stuff. I’ve only watched Netflix from mid seasons to present. There’s no denying these guys are all incredible drivers. From a new fan point of view, Max looks so far ahead of everyone else, it reminds me of the Schumacher days.

There’s always one kid in the paddock of new racers. It doesn’t matter where they are from. From MX5 cup to F1. Max really seems like that guy. I could be wrong. But damn… his consistency, confidence, skills… I know I sound like a fanboy but just an observation. I’m ready to root for anyone that can out drive such an amazing class of racers. Unless he drastically changes, he could, I’m all in on the next GOAT in racing ?

 

[johnnyskids]

All you have to do is watch the Japanese Grand Prix, and see how they screwed him.

That's another example of being misunderstood because he's Dutch.
He's just saying without the problem in qualifying he would've been able to fight for the win. Of course it sucks. You have the fastest car, the best strategy, but you start in 15th. Who wouldn't be pissed with that? Name me a driver, any driver, that has that but is happy coming 2nd? Absolutely no-one. They're all there to win. And every single one of them would be pissed if they could've been P1 but got P2 instead. If they didn't they wouldn't be racers.

I'll just concede, you win bud. I'm not going to argue when it's clear you do not have any interest in seeing things without your blinders on. Cheers, enjoy the RB and Max dominance.

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