Starter Troubleshooting

[HaiFrends]

Uh oh... i think im in the same boat too - i've been getting it since 25k miles

yep...me too. 32k miles. shit. and i'm in the middle of my work week and dont have time for this shit. i'll obviously have to get it towed

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[lucky phil]

Well starters are a cycles deal in reality these days when you think bout it. 32K miles for some weekend drivers could be only 320 starts and for others using it as a DD and short commutes to work and all the other stuff you use a car for it could realistically be 3200 starts. In days past mileage was a pretty good measure of most things but now not so much. Build them lighter, faster and cheaper and the old rule of thumb for some components no longer applies. Some things should be treated as hard time replacements because the drama involved in a failure offsets the cost of replacement while it's still functioning and a starter failure even still under warranty is a major PITA.

Phil

 

[HaiFrends]

Well starters are a cycles deal in reality these days when you think bout it. 32K miles for some weekend drivers could be only 320 starts and for others using it as a DD and short commutes to work and all the other stuff you use a car for it could realistically be 3200 starts. In days past mileage was a pretty good measure of most things but now not so much. Build them lighter, faster and cheaper and the old rule of thumb for some components no longer applies. Some things should be treated as hard time replacements because the drama involved in a failure offsets the cost of replacement while it's still functioning and a starter failure even still under warranty is a major PITA.

Phil

Yea this Is my daily. Still looking for a shop that’ll work on my car. Shockingly have been having a hard time getting shops to call me back for some reason. The car does start randomly if I have multiple attempts so I could drive it to the said shop. Figured starters would last longer than the hypothetical “3200 starts” etc but it is what it is.
-also named Phil.

 

[concept]

Our 2006 Lexus RX400h starts and stops many, many times during every outing. I agree with Phil that mileage means little. It's more the traffic and length of drive during heavy or medium traffic.
I read that hybrids have very heavy-duty starters. We've never had to replace ours. Why wouldn't stop-start vehicles also have heavy-duty starters?

 

[J29DB03]

Our 2006 Lexus RX400h starts and stops many, many times during every outing. I agree with Phil that mileage means little. It's more the traffic and length of drive during heavy or medium traffic.
I read that hybrids have very heavy-duty starters. We've never had to replace ours. Why wouldn't stop-start vehicles also have heavy-duty starters?

Because the politicians making these decisions only know how to think short term so they get votes here and now. They are incapable of seeing the big picture and everything that gets affected.

 

[concept]

Because the politicians making these decisions only know how to think short term so they get votes here and now. They are incapable of seeing the big picture and everything that gets affected.

I would think that vehicle manufacturers would at least ensure that components would last beyond the warranty period after worse-case conditions.

 

[lucky phil]

Our 2006 Lexus RX400h starts and stops many, many times during every outing. I agree with Phil that mileage means little. It's more the traffic and length of drive during heavy or medium traffic.
I read that hybrids have very heavy-duty starters. We've never had to replace ours. Why wouldn't stop-start vehicles also have heavy-duty starters?

They generally do along with uprated batteries, starter ring gears, coated big end/main shells and probably other stuff I'm not aware of. This start stop still isn't good for and engine though.
Phil

 

[lucky phil]

Yea this Is my daily. Still looking for a shop that’ll work on my car. Shockingly have been having a hard time getting shops to call me back for some reason. The car does start randomly if I have multiple attempts so I could drive it to the said shop. Figured starters would last longer than the hypothetical “3200 starts” etc but it is what it is.
-also named Phil.

Out of interest I assume you don't run with the auto start/stop activated?

Phil

 

[lucky phil]

I would think that vehicle manufacturers would at least ensure that components would last beyond the warranty period after worse-case conditions.

You would thing so wouldn't you but I've seen them do dumber things over the years, like leave off the dipstick, lol. Manufacturers also often roll the dice with things. During R&D and testing at the factory they have issues and due to the many variable in releasing a model which always end up based in a cost they just let it go and cross their fingers. I know of many times in testing something gives the engineers concern and there is debate about redesign it ends up not being an issue in the public world. Of course the reverse also happens a lot. When Ford released the Focus RS mk3 they took a shortcut with the head gasket and used the Mustang piece but the Mustang engine had a different bore bridge cooling strategy and head and within 6 months Rs's were blowing head gaskets. One look at the gasket and the block bore bridge and it was obvious to anyone thats built engines that the original gasket was never going to last but Ford rolled the dice and the owners ended up paying the price.
Maybe in these cases it's about a bad batch of starters as bot here are 2020 models.

Phil

 

[concept]

They generally do along with uprated batteries, starter ring gears, coated big end/main shells and probably other stuff I'm not aware of. This start stop still isn't good for and engine though.
Phil

Phil, there are quite a few hybrid owners out here with 250,000+ miles on their cars and 15+ years of age. I'm a moderator in a Lexus forum. Our Lexus engine is doing just fine - doesn't burn oil at all at 140k miles.
But I agree that the old saying "An engine's greatest wear occurs at startup." Was certainly true in the past with the oil available at that time.

 

[concept]

You would thing so wouldn't you but I've seen them do dumber things over the years, like leave off the dipstick, lol. Manufacturers also often roll the dice with things. During R&D and testing at the factory they have issues and due to the many variable in releasing a model which always end up based in a cost they just let it go and cross their fingers. I know of many times in testing something gives the engineers concern and there is debate about redesign it ends up not being an issue in the public world. Of course the reverse also happens a lot. When Ford released the Focus RS mk3 they took a shortcut with the head gasket and used the Mustang piece but the Mustang engine had a different bore bridge cooling strategy and head and within 6 months Rs's were blowing head gaskets. One look at the gasket and the block bore bridge and it was obvious to anyone thats built engines that the original gasket was never going to last but Ford rolled the dice and the owners ended up paying the price.
Maybe in these cases it's about a bad batch of starters as bot here are 2020 models.

Phil

That could be, and also, the starters could've been upgraded. Most modern day starters last a much longer time. It'd be great to be able to find out what the root cause was -one of the benefits of dealership feedback to Toyota, IF their tech did the warranty work.

 

[razorlab]

I'm a moderator in a Lexus forum.

Note to self to never go to that forum. I'm sure it's a hoot.

 

[lucky phil]

Phil, there are quite a few hybrid owners out here with 250,000+ miles on their cars and 15+ years of age. I'm a moderator in a Lexus forum. Our Lexus engine is doing just fine - doesn't burn oil at all at 140k miles.
But I agree that the old saying "An engine's greatest wear occurs at startup." Was certainly true in the past with the oil available at that time.

It's not the start up wear so much as whats happening to the oil in the hot zones such as around the exhaust ports in the head when the engine stops and heat soaks. The oil that is a substantial part of the cooling in ICE engines stops flowing around those areas and carrying away the heat and starts to cook. Some engines tolerate this better than others esp if they are designed from the outset for SS operations and not a previous design adapted for the cause. I still don't like it though. Engines always like to remain running even in traffic as long as the cooling system is up to the job.

Phil

 

[razorlab]

It's not the start up wear so much as whats happening to the oil in the hot zones such as around the exhaust ports in the head when the engine stops and heat soaks. The oil that is a substantial part of the cooling in ICE engines stops flowing around those areas and carrying away the heat and starts to cook. Some engines tolerate this better than others esp if they are designed from the outset for SS operations and not a previous design adapted for the cause. I still don't like it though. Engines always like to remain running even in traffic as long as the cooling system is up to the job.

Phil

Not that I want to be a part of this conversation whatsoever but a lot of modern engines keep the oil pump running in these instances. Same with Coolant.

 

[concept]

It's not the start up wear so much as whats happening to the oil in the hot zones such as around the exhaust ports in the head when the engine stops and heat soaks. The oil that is a substantial part of the cooling in ICE engines stops flowing around those areas and carrying away the heat and starts to cook. Some engines tolerate this better than others esp if they are designed from the outset for SS operations and not a previous design adapted for the cause. I still don't like it though. Engines always like to remain running even in traffic as long as the cooling system is up to the job.

Phil

Good points. Side note: I have noticed that my starter will kick on when voltage gets down to about 12.1.
Perhaps Razorlab is correct. That would certainly help.

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