Toyota "Preparing" Hotter Supra GRMN, Says Chief Engineer

[A70TTR]

@A70TTR Certainly sounds like it'll be special but are you aware of any news about a manual transmission Supra coming to the market from Toyota? Or should the people that want a MT sports car cut their losses and go for the new GR86 when its released?

I truly don't think a manual is ever coming. People keep asking Tada about it like a broken record, and he then has to say, "well, we won't say it isn't going to happen" for PR reasons (when inside his head he is going, yeah 95% chance it isn't happening). You also can't ignore the BMW part of the equation.

The people I've asked internally about this also echo these sentiments, but there is always that super slim chance it will happen... But the reality of it is just that, highly unlikely.

The GR86 will be an awesome car, especially for someone wanting a manual Toyota. The same goes for the GR Corolla being developed. Unfortunately neither are anywhere near as premium level as the Supra, but that's just how it is...



Toyota makes a lot more sense as a company if you start viewing it as multiple different entities fighting each other on every aspect of vehicle development, for both financial and political reasons. I feel there used to be far more solidarity in vision/goals which is why these apparent contradictions used to be seemingly less prevalent.

Sponsored

 

[KahnBB6]

^^ This is sad if it's really the case. At the end of the day it is a substantial number of potential buyers who look at this car and say to themselves, "We know you CAN make a manual edition.... it's just that you refuse to." Even with BMW in that mix there are still ways to make it happen and possibly spread that cost among the entire Supra and Z4 range.

But at that point your comment on how to view Toyota Motor Corp as a whole today does put this disconnect into more perspective. Disappointing from the standpoint of overall vision but it makes sense.

I've said it before: it's not like people are clamoring for another manual Toyota Camry grocery getter. They're clamoring for a manual SUPRA.

I can only hope for that very very slim chance of it happening. This window of time is literally Toyota's last opportunity to offer a 3-pedal manual transmission Supra for sale. And before too long it's going to be not totally but close to impossible to get one of the upcoming EAG manual swapped Supras legally road registered in some locales (like California-- other less stringent states no problem) due to how even ECU flash update registers will be screened.

A70, you're right, I am excited for the manual GR86 and manual Corolla GR-Four. Both of those have my eye and excitement also even though they aren't what the Supra is.

Ultimately after taking a lot of time and effort to do a fully custom build up my current old Toyota I'm not really interested in doing that all over again with whatever brand new car gets parked alongside it. If the manual A90 never happens, as much as I really love the rest of its design that would make, apart from the GR86 and Corolla GT-Four, the next Z, M2 or Mustang more appealing. Because all of those cars still offer or will continue to offer a 3-pedal manual for the foreseeable future.

Aside from the transmission though the GRMN so far sounds like it's going to be excellent! Though I was expecting the regular Supra to get the B58D and the GRMN to get an even higher tuned variant of that. The "D" model of the engine probably has the traditional 6-port exhaust head and traditional turbo manifold, correct?

Maybe the Supra GRMN will get that BMW 7-speed DCT after all?

 

[MA617M]

The GRMN will be a road going GT4, just like what Porsche do with their GT and cup models.

 

[JasonO]

Toyota makes a lot more sense as a company if you start viewing it as multiple different entities fighting each other on every aspect of vehicle development, for both financial and political reasons. I feel there used to be far more solidarity in vision/goals which is why these apparent contradictions used to be seemingly less prevalent.

You hit the nail on the head. Lots of fiefdoms and no cooperation. The current Supra is a product of that. If there was solidarity, the Supra and the next RC F or LC would have shared an entire platform and/or power train. It may not have been an in-line six, but that is a damned small hurdle to get over if the engine performs.

 

[tha7osavage]

Sure is.



If they follow through with the original plan, the car will be pretty intense as far as how its built and what goes into it.

We thinking we’ll be getting a dual clutch this time around? Or no changes in that department

 

[Bryster]

TRD kits?

Yes

 

[Axix23]

I am happy with the current verison of the Supra. I don't need all the aero stuff and extra jazz. I think its already enough for me.

 

[Matador]

If they follow through with the original plan, the car will be pretty intense as far as how its built and what goes into it.

While I don't expect this to be the case, I hope it goes that way. My dream for a GRMN Supra is for Toyota to "redeem" themselves (at least as far as the critics go anyway ) and put in the work themselves and "out M" BMW. Meaning, to me, a modified B58 that outperforms the S58, strengthened and lightened body, and meaningful, aesthetically pleasing but fairly subtle visual enhancements. CF roof, hood, hatch maybe even door skins.

The GRMN will be a road going GT4, just like what Porsche do with their GT and cup models.

Unless they change the nature of where GRMN cars sit in the line up, I'd hope there is an in between.... a faster, harder edged Supra (road going GT4) that isn't as limited as what the GRMN cars have been so far.

 

[DesmoSD]

It was more as an example. They are going to chip away at improvements / options than lay it all on the table in one go.

I don’t disagree that retooling cost money. It is always easier to get a company to spend X over 5 years than 3X in one year even though it cost more long term. I deal with this mindset all the time with my job. Toyota has other options for the rest of the that money, so that expense loses out when measured by the opportunity cost. Not saying I agree with it, but it is incredibly common.

I truly don't think a manual is ever coming. People keep asking Tada about it like a broken record, and he then has to say, "well, we won't say it isn't going to happen" for PR reasons (when inside his head he is going, yeah 95% chance it isn't happening). You also can't ignore the BMW part of the equation.

The people I've asked internally about this also echo these sentiments, but there is always that super slim chance it will happen... But the reality of it is just that, highly unlikely.

The GR86 will be an awesome car, especially for someone wanting a manual Toyota. The same goes for the GR Corolla being developed. Unfortunately neither are anywhere near as premium level as the Supra, but that's just how it is...

Toyota makes a lot more sense as a company if you start viewing it as multiple different entities fighting each other on every aspect of vehicle development, for both financial and political reasons. I feel there used to be far more solidarity in vision/goals which is why these apparent contradictions used to be seemingly less prevalent.

Thats’s very disappointing. Toyota has lost their motorsports focus.

The GRMN will be a road going GT4, just like what Porsche do with their GT and cup models.

In this case, it’ll be the opposite since the road version GT4 has a manual n the Cup is PDK. Toyota is too scared to spend.

 

[bigcat]

I truly don't think a manual is ever coming. People keep asking Tada about it like a broken record, and he then has to say, "well, we won't say it isn't going to happen" for PR reasons (when inside his head he is going, yeah 95% chance it isn't happening). You also can't ignore the BMW part of the equation.

His answer is very Japanese, their culture doesn't say anything clearly yes or no until it's officially confirmed or announced.

And I don't believe Toyota will make too much new stuff for GRMN version if there is.
Remember the ultimate A80 Supra from Toyota: TRD 3000GT? Its engine is basically untouched.

We know their CEO Toyoda Akio is a race enthusiast, but before that, he is a businessman.

 

[tfoxyr]

Well the car will become faster , that is happening for sure with a facelift or some yearly update. Keep in mind though that this car is a bmw , so the engine will stay the same b58 bmw but tuned for more power. This special version you are expecting maybe won't be much different than the grmn 86 , which made a whopping 15 more hp than the standard 86 and having shed some weight by removing basic car features for DOUBLE the price. Toyota knows how to make cars ( im a big fan of the new yaris range ) but with their sports cars they didnt even try , i mean if i want performance i would buy the cayman s or the tt rs , or if i wanted more practicality+fun i would take the m2(or m240i brilliant car) which comes with a manual. Sports cars are meant to be fast , the acceleration in general and speed you have in the corners is what matters, the manual (which i prefer) is there to make you feel in control of that speed.

 

[MrBenoJacko]

Well the car will become faster , that is happening for sure with a facelift or some yearly update. Keep in mind though that this car is a bmw , so the engine will stay the same b58 bmw but tuned for more power. This special version you are expecting maybe won't be much different than the grmn 86 , which made a whopping 15 more hp than the standard 86 and having shed some weight by removing basic car features for DOUBLE the price. Toyota knows how to make cars ( im a big fan of the new yaris range ) but with their sports cars they didnt even try , i mean if i want performance i would buy the cayman s or the tt rs , or if i wanted more practicality+fun i would take the m2(or m240i brilliant car) which comes with a manual. Sports cars are meant to be fast , the acceleration in general and speed you have in the corners is what matters, the manual (which i prefer) is there to make you feel in control of that speed.

Yeah I dont understand why the manual trans isnt higher up on the priority list at Toyota, especially when more power is easily acquired through 3rd-party tuners. People who want the manual option will eventually be spending their money elsewhere and there's nothing stopping them buying from the source (BMW, such as the M2 or Z4) at a lower price. So if Toyota offered a manual they would be able sell many more Supras by covering this gap in the market.

Toyota (along with Tada and many others) must realise that the manual in the MK4 is one of the main factors which made it so popular in the higher end of the street car market, along with the cars tuning potential...

It'll sure be interesting to see what the people who want high BHP numbers will do to solve issues with the ZF 8-speed slipping.

 

[KahnBB6]

Yeah I dont understand why the manual trans isnt higher up on the priority list at Toyota, especially when more power is easily acquired through 3rd-party tuners. People who want the manual option will eventually be spending their money elsewhere and there's nothing stopping them buying from the source (BMW, such as the M2 or Z4) at a lower price. So if Toyota offered a manual they would be able sell many more Supras by covering this gap in the market.

Toyota (along with Tada and many others) must realise that the manual in the MK4 is one of the main factors which made it so popular in the higher end of the street car market, along with the cars tuning potential...

It'll sure be interesting to see what the people who want high BHP numbers will do to solve issues with the ZF 8-speed slipping.

^^ The MKIV Supra Turbo 6-speed M/T is definitely the combination (original or built) that everyone wants and which is what that car has always been known for.

ATFSpeed (known as just "ATF") is famous for building up GM automatics, Powerglides and the A340E 4-speed that make in the MKIV Turbo. They don't list their max torque rating but their Stage 3 for those transmissions maxes out at between 900-1000whp (with several trans coolers to keep things happy).

It will be interesting to see if they take a crack at maxing out the Supra MKV's ZF8-8HP.

The old Getrag V160's and V161's have been observed to hold more than 1200whp with the gears themselves (stock synchros aside) capable of handling 1200 ft-lbs due to their size and metallurgy. So the ZF8-8HP in built form will need to be able to handle the same to be comparable just on the level of power numbers alone (not feel).

And maybe it's not quite a fair comparison but since the even higher rated Tremec Magnum 6-speeds have become a growing trend to swap into MKIV's in recent years over the now hard to service and repair V160's it makes the bar even higher for the ZF8-8HP to reach.

 

[Matador]

I wouldn't put a manual transmission outside the real of possibility for a GRMN car. The hardware exists to do it. By precedent, they made two GRMN versions of the MarkX with a 6 speed manual transmission... a whopping 450 cars in total (100 first run, 350 second). Outside of that..... ehhh... not sure

His answer is very Japanese, their culture doesn't say anything clearly yes or no until it's officially confirmed or announced.

And I don't believe Toyota will make too much new stuff for GRMN version if there is.
Remember the ultimate A80 Supra from Toyota: TRD 3000GT? Its engine is basically untouched.

We know their CEO Toyoda Akio is a race enthusiast, but before that, he is a businessman.

The TRD 3000GT was what the original owners wanted it to be (or could afford...lol). It was either cosmetic only, or had the whole TRD catalog thrown at it. It didn't have engine upgrades available when it was originally announced, but I believe when it was sold it could be had from mildly tuned to "the Highway patrol cars won't bother to chase me" engine packages. IIRC some versions left TRD's doors with well over 500hp.

That being said, they usually do tend to focus on aero improvement and weight reduction rather than adding power. Anybody remember the TRD 86 Griffon?

 

[A70TTR]

His answer is very Japanese, their culture doesn't say anything clearly yes or no until it's officially confirmed or announced.

That is also true and I have covered it previously, but there is a PR perspective to it as well.

Sponsored