Toyota News Thread

[KahnBB6]

I believe Lexus will offer more EV’s because of the price point of their cars and clientele. Lexus buyers have the cheese for the latest stuff. However, Toyota brand won’t be able to sell many EV’s because of their clientele (one of the many reasons). People are struggling as is paying $45k for a gas powered RAV4, imagine with a foreign made EV version….easily into the $50k’s. Wrong clientele. Isn’t the BZ4X (or whatever its called) flopping?

The high costs of new car models... plus markups... plus the general state of the price of pretty much everything these days... all does make even the most normal car purchases more challenging for most people.

On Toyota's EVs, the BZ4X was just not a very good attempt on their part. They started with a regular ICE architecture and then gave it quite lackluster range and performance for a very high price. I am not surprised that they aren't selling well. They can do MUCH better and should have in the first place.

Then again since the BZ4X is yet another crossover/CUV thing it hardly registers on my radar compared to literally any sedan, coupe, hatchback, wagon, convertible and niche sports vehicles. People buy crossovers/CUVs/SUVs rather shrewdly and unemotionally... for practical use... so if it just doesn't stack up other offerings in the everyday real world it probably won't be seen as being worth it for the price.

But also some of the issue is technology and that comes back around to Toyota's big bet on not just hydrogen but more immediately their solid state battery designs. Hopefully they will remain on track for that to debut in select Lexus and niche sports models under both brands by the middle of the decade.

All the manufacturers are racing to perfect and scale production for solid state cells after all.

Hydrogen, super capacitors, various forms of hybrid and range extended EVs... I know that Toyota has excellent engineers working on all of these solutions and approaches.

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Also... he may have stepped back to take on the Chairman role but Akio Toyoda championed his "no more boring cars" philosophy and tried to put that ethos into the hearts and minds of all his engineers, designers, marketing people, etc.

Koji Sato seems to be aligned with him in spirit even if he will make his own unique mark as the Toyota CEO going forward but this idea of keeping cars interesting and not boring is even more important with a battery EV. All aspects of an EV from style to suspension design to driving experience have to be honed and made interesting to have appeal to buyers beyond to differentiate one offering from the next.

BS subscriptions for unlocking built in hardware capabilities isn't it. More touchscreens isn't it. Less connection to the driving experience isn't it.

I'm thinking along the lines of how the (co-developed) GR86 can be considered a step backwards in terms of refinement, NVH, outright power, etc. But when you drive the thing it works and has excellent feel for those who want that connected and fully engaged driving experience.

At least the GR Toyotas and fun Lexus models need a similar approach. That will be a big part of how Toyota can make future EVs (with better technology than we have right now of course) popular and desirable beyond just the decarbonization factor.

Make a GOOD EV, a FUN EV, and an EV that always puts a giddy smile on your face whenever you get behind the wheel and people will want them because they are just great cars plain and simple.

I do feel that Toyota will get there at least by the end of this decade. Maybe sooner with a couple of niche or prestige models to start with.

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[FLtrackdays]

Anything we can do to produce and supply ourselves, I’m all for. I don’t like how dependent we would become from foreign entities for the supplies to make these batteries used in EVs. That’s no. 1

No 2 would be the drain on our electrical grid here in the USA. We’re quick to mandate things without looking ahead. We’d need more nuclear power, for a start… Yet there is no thought into the supply chain on such a massive scale.

The free market should determine what we can and cannot supply. Hence I love Akio Toyodo’s leadership in this area. He doesn’t seem to give a shit what government officials short term thinking demand. As in their own reelection. It’s never what’s best for the people - any party. Just my opinion ofc. Anyways, Akio appears to do what’s best for Toyota. That‘s really rare for a company of this scale and size, with pressure from so many directions. So great to see!

While their goal is for hydrogen... which will take considerably more time to perfect for the vehicles, build out as to refueling infrastructure and ultimately on the cleanly produced H2 production side... isn't the Lexus brand in particular going mostly EV model by model over the next 10+ years aside from maybe 1-2 special gas-hybrid or gas-generator-hybrid special models?

It will likely be a mix of mostly BEV (but not with lithium cells) vehicles plus hydrogen fuel cell vehicles plus very niche/vintage synthetic gasoline or hydrogen combustion in coming years.

From all I read week by week on the subject it seems that all of these things will coexist.

I don’t know enough about hydrogen cars, but that sounds way better than mining for minerals in Africa and other places. Why not go in this direction? I’m not in politics, so I don’t have a clue why there isn’t enough lobbyists in this field. It’s a shame we don’t have more manufacturing diversity and find our limiting reagents sooner than later ?‍

 

[PerformanceSound]

Anything we can do to produce and supply ourselves, I’m all for. I don’t like how dependent we would become from foreign entities for the supplies to make these batteries used in EVs. That’s no. 1

No 2 would be the drain on our electrical grid here in the USA. We’re quick to mandate things without looking ahead. We’d need more nuclear power, for a start… Yet there is no thought into the supply chain on such a massive scale.

The free market should determine what we can and cannot supply. Hence I love Akio Toyodo’s leadership in this area. He doesn’t seem to give a shit what government officials short term thinking demand. As in their own reelection. It’s never what’s best for the people - any party. Just my opinion ofc. Anyways, Akio appears to do what’s best for Toyota. That‘s really rare for a company of this scale and size, with pressure from so many directions. So great to see!



I don’t know enough about hydrogen cars, but that sounds way better than mining for minerals in Africa and other places. Why not go in this direction? I’m not in politics, so I don’t have a clue why there isn’t enough lobbyists in this field. It’s a shame we don’t have more manufacturing diversity and find our limiting reagents sooner than later ?‍

Foreign supply and manufacturing is what built Toyota’s reputation. It’s the reason people make fun of Ford for its horrible overall reputation. I’m pro creating jobs domestically don’t get me wrong, but the strategy for most domestic engineering and manufacturing is below average in terms of quality. Now, throw in the mix new technology, and that amplifies what I said even more.

I wholeheartedly agree that EV’s are just a “are you happy now” strategy. Our own government is now restarting the oil refineries and drilling again…why?…because it doesn’t make practical or economical sense to turn off a reliable and proven method of automotive manufacturing and turn on a financially unviable and unproven one. EV’s work, yes we get it…but just because something works doesn’t make it practical or economical for 90% of the world.

Lets get more range, more reliability, and guarenteed infrastructure for EV’s and im in. However, because of the way our national grid is setup and infancy of battery technology for use in EV’s…this is damn near impossible to do within the next 50yrs!

Hydrogen (as I’ve said many times) is key, but there just isn’t a economical way to produce it without making fuel cost $10 a gallon.

 

[KahnBB6]

^^ You both bring up very good points and I agree that as to *current* charging infrastructure, H2 refueling infrastructure, the *current* state of the electrical grid and power plants, *current* commercialized and large scale use H2 production methodologies and *current* battery pack technologies and their limitations and production there are still more caveats and limitations even for non-enthusiast vehicle buyers let alone those of us who are gearheads who demand the best and most emotional models we can get our hands on.

But we're talking about a chicken and egg problem while we're in a boiling pot of water. The old boiling frog analogy. Right now we don't *quite* feel this analogous boiling water but if we collectively do nothing different than we're already doing... by the time we do notice it we'll be (collectively) boiled.

So we have governments worldwide mandating various ways to drastically slow down CO2 output before the free market happens to get around to the most perfect carbon neutral fully commercialized technologies. We'd get those superior technologies eventually with no external regulatory pressure but with that regulatory pressure on manufacturers their R&D scientists and engineers have now been racing to get the solutions faster than they would have otherwise.

And in the interim right alongside all of that the manufacturers also have to make do on the wider commercial scale-up with the producible and reliable EV technology we have available at this moment. Which is not ideal but they have no choice.

And the regulations forcing both of these concurrent manufacturer technology and scale-up-production pushes are in place to get ahead of an even worse world livability situation if they hadn't been mandated.

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Ultimately I don't think synthetic gasoline will be a "cheap" fuel but I do think it will come down to FAR less than today's $44/gal figure in its very limited production form.

H2... I'm not sure what the costs of it are offhand but similarly I do see that scaling up to become more accessible and cheaper overall eventually. Especially in all areas and sectors where diesel powered heavy industrial engines rule. And some normal H2 vehicles will piggyback onto that infrastructure.

Batteries and their deficiencies today... I don't see any of that remaining the same. I'd prefer an H2 powered machine personally but all of what we expereince today in the characteristics of a BEV will change for the better. Pack size, pack weight, pack lifespan, pack energy density, pack recharging time, pack energy retention longevity, pack discharge qualities under hard and sustained high performance use (probably with super capacitors) will all improve a lot.

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Also the U.S. and other countries are pushing billions of investment into EV charging infrastructure build-outs and into powerplant and energy production overhauls. It should begin looking kind of like the WPA push under Roosevelt was back in the 1930's... just in a totally new context of course.

It doesn't have to be a slow and lazy buildout process to overhaul the electrical grid.

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As to hydrogen in general from what I understand the Japanese government focus politically has been on the fuel cell stack + small battery pack technology more than on 100% battery pack only electric cars.

In the U.S. at least I think it has been the opposite as to government emphasis.

Of course ideally you want both technological approaches and infrastructures to mature as quickly as possible.

I love the Hyundai Vision 74 (FCV), GR Corolla H2 & GR Yaris H2 (both H2 ICE) but hydrogen as a fuel cell industrial application from everything from heavy equipment to large ships and airplanes will be a much needed thing as well. We will benefit with some unique fun cars on its coat-tails.

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Toyota and Lexus will still likely keep on with their case-by-case-model EV transition with all hybrid ICEs being the mainstay shift for the next few years. But it appears that Lexus will make the model-by-model shift to EVs faster simply because the price points they sell at will support this faster than Toyota model price points will.

They'll have enough time to get all of it in line by 2035.

And we're at this moment still waiting for the EU to decide if carbon neutral fuels and hydrogen combustion in 2035+ NEW combustion vehicles will be acceptable amidst the main battery-electric and hydrogen fuel cell electric push. The U.S. government doesn't appear to have been clear on their position with that yet.

We'll see.

 

[KahnBB6]

^^ We are definitely going to need more nuclear power generation going forward. And fusion is still decades off from true viability. 2050 maybe...?

So that leaves different forms of fission nuclear. And we can right now use ready to go better alternatives to the old enriched uranium nuclear plant model. We just have to approve of it and build the things.

Thorium nuclear reactors are the main alternative that show the most promise.

 

[3TMagnetMan]

I like the Hybrid scenario for vehicles its the best option for now until infrastructure catches up.

 

[KahnBB6]

I like the Hybrid scenario for vehicles its the best option for now until infrastructure catches up.

In the immediate future I also think this will be the reality for most people. New hybrids are going to be with us from now through 2035. Full electric options (100% battery or hydrogen fuel cell + small battery) will increase but those will only work for people wherever the EV charging and H2 infrastructure is plentiful enough.

I travel by car long distances. Speaking just of practical cars rather than very special low volume performance models an EV would still not be a good choice for me for that purpose at this time. As this decade grinds on when infrastructure and batteries have both improved enough I think it will be a different case.

Right now it can work for some people depending on where they are and on what they can afford.

Also... manufacturers really need to make more compelling EVs than the current bland and boring EV offerings. I know they sell well statistically but... let's also have some EVs (both high end and semi-affordable/attainable) that appeal to car people as well. I also feel we'll have better options like that in coming years but we do not at current time.

Given the cost of EVs why buy a boring model? Further, and I know I'm preaching to the choir on this forum, why are boring EV models the *only* EV models on offer unless it's a multi-million dollar hypercar like a Rimac?

The driveline may be different, sure, but it's more than that. Current EVs are just very very boring, sterile, far too insulated and not very engaging vehicles. We need some raw characteristics and far better style baked in for people who love fun cars and love to drive the hell out of them.

 

[PerformanceSound]

I like the Hybrid scenario for vehicles its the best option for now until infrastructure catches up.

Exactly! Best of both worlds. Also, Toyota’s hybrid system is proven and super reliable.

 

[FLtrackdays]

Foreign supply and manufacturing is what built Toyota’s reputation. It’s the reason people make fun of Ford for its horrible overall reputation. I’m pro creating jobs domestically don’t get me wrong, but the strategy for most domestic engineering and manufacturing is below average in terms of quality. Now, throw in the mix new technology, and that amplifies what I said even more.

I wholeheartedly agree that EV’s are just a “are you happy now” strategy. Our own government is now restarting the oil refineries and drilling again…why?…because it doesn’t make practical or economical sense to turn off a reliable and proven method of automotive manufacturing and turn on a financially unviable and unproven one. EV’s work, yes we get it…but just because something works doesn’t make it practical or economical for 90% of the world.

Lets get more range, more reliability, and guarenteed infrastructure for EV’s and im in. However, because of the way our national grid is setup and infancy of battery technology for use in EV’s…this is damn near impossible to do within the next 50yrs!

Hydrogen (as I’ve said many times) is key, but there just isn’t a economical way to produce it without making fuel cost $10 a gallon.

Well said!

In addition to battery max range, which is what is stated now, a typical use range, similar to city vs highway mpg for ICE cars, would be really nice & increase the confidence/trust of the EV market. We all know if a EV truck does truck stuff the range goes way down. If you use your AC and add some people in the vehicle, same. So just give us some honest numbers to go with that single max range. It would be nice to have one if I was in kid car lines, heavy traffic or anything else that made sense for my family’s use. It just doesn’t fit the long road trips, track use, or my daily commute benefit in my neck of the woods, yet… ?

 

[XtremeMaC]

Surprise surprise
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/business/toyota-launch-10-new-battery-ev-models-2026-3403476
Hope they started things years ago 'cause 3 years left for 10 evs ?

Let's see how Mazda rotary range extender turns out.

 

[B58_ hwAyaq]

I don’t know enough about hydrogen cars

There’s the more common hydrogen fuel cell cars that turn hydrogen into electricity then the car runs on that electricity. Then, there’s the Porsche way:

 

[PerformanceSound]

Surprise surprise
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/business/toyota-launch-10-new-battery-ev-models-2026-3403476
Hope they started things years ago 'cause 3 years left for 10 evs ?

Let's see how Mazda rotary range extender turns out.

One has to first question why Toyota was not all in on EV's with Akio, and then all of a sudden 10 new EV's coming with Sato. Get the answer to that, and the automotive industries "strategy" will make alot more sense.

Personally, I don't think Akio "voluntarily" left.

 

[GRMan]

One has to first question why Toyota was not all in on EV's with Akio, and then all of a sudden 10 new EV's coming with Sato. Get the answer to that, and the automotive industries "strategy" will make alot more sense.

Personally, I don't think Akio "voluntarily" left.

Akio didn’t ‘left’ Toyota, he is now the Chairman of the Board.

It is the ‘Board’ that sets the vision and the goals for the company. So if Toyota was late to EV it was a joint decision from the board members. Primary because they believe EV is not a blanket solution to carbon neutral and rightly so.

With Toyota’s extensive investments on Hydrogen ICE (liquid & gas) and Hydrogen fuel cell technologies. I would expect these technologies to be heavily utilised in the upcoming generation of ‘green’ vehicles within 10 years.

With Akio now the Chairman of Toyota Corp, he will have even more power to set the visions for the company

 

[XtremeMaC]

Akio didn’t ‘left’ Toyota, he is now the Chairman of the Board.

He meant left his position...

With Toyota’s extensive investments on Hydrogen ICE (liquid & gas) and Hydrogen fuel cell technologies. I would expect these technologies to be heavily utilised in the upcoming generation of ‘green’ vehicles within 10 years.

Doubtful... There's little support, demand and infrastructure for it. Toyota is not going to splurge like Elon for super hydrogen-ators?, hydro-chargers? Lol.
Biden made up his mind, doubtful the next guy will be like hey what happened to the hydrogen...
Energy output shortcomings are well documented. No one wants to visit the gas station 3 times more than gasoline.. as much as I like and support the idea.

It's either hybrid or BEV as scientists are discovering or coming up with other mediums and other charge techniques...

Problem with BEV is the zombie apocalypse survival type people will never trust something that they can't store. Yes, technically they can, but that's costly and degrades/depletes overtime as well. And obviously aforementioned lack of infrastructure. Forget that. A tree knocks out a pole, whole city loses power for days..

There's lots of if scenarios for sure like, petrol truck crashed didn't arrive to station.. draught, dam hydropower... Angry birds attack wind turbines, aliens attack solar reflectors, Godzilla attacks nuclear power stations.

Other thing that no one touched base on is the use cases in US vs EU are rather different. As in car dependency.. yeah EU has more cars per capita than US, but culture (for walking, biking, etc.) and lack of public transportation in US, causes people to drive longer distances. So, mileage expectation or anxiety in US, I'd think would be far greater than EU. So, adaptation could take longer
On the other hand, especially in suburbs more people have garages vs high rise buildings with only street parking in cities.. in EU, it may be, total guess here, more difficult to erect charge stations and find large accommodating places for it. maybe once charge time is reduced to 10mins or so .
//Random thoughts off

 

[KahnBB6]

I think Akio Toyoda certainly had some tough discussions with the top brass at Toyota that factored into this given his general opinions on 100% BEVs and where the largest market investment is going.

I think it's also relevant that the guy is in his late 60's and has been at this steering his family's company directly for a very large part of his life already.

And I also think he was never fully fully *opposed* to EVs and electrification... just not in favor of a 100% phaseout of every single iteration of internal combustion in any context or category whatsoever.

Also I think Koji Sato, given his background running both the Lexus and GR divisions, isn't immune to the love for fun combustion cars in any form.

Just like the rest of the industry players Toyota as a company is trying to figure out how to handle this transition away from gasoline and diesel fuels.

I don't think this is easy for any of them to figure out while still maintaining their large presence in the vehicle market and while also maintaining their core identify and passion for their products.

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