2020 Supra Transmission Chat - Manual, Dual Clutch, or Auto?

[DevonK]

More on the Tada roundtable in Geneva here:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/geneva-auto-show/a19179702/toyota-bmw-partnership/

He talks about how initially they were looking to maximize the sharing of parts with BMW and then how that became less of a priority.

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[Levi]

I personally see no difference between AUT, DCT and CVT, as long as it is driven in automatic. How good each is depends on how it is programmed. The issue I personally have with automatic, is that manual mode just does not work for me, I am not able to use it as well as a true manual. Paddle shifting is nice on track and curvy roads, but completely useless in town and makes driving more difficult than automatic or manual. Paddle shifting makes sense for racing, but from my bad experience, not for road cars. In my opinion paddle shifters are a stupid trend sold by marketing. I want to blame Ferrari and Porsche for this.

 

[HKz]

I personally see no difference between AUT, DCT and CVT, as long as it is driven in automatic. How good each is depends on how it is programmed. The issue I personally have with automatic, is that manual mode just does not work for me, I am not able to use it as well as a true manual. Paddle shifting is nice on track and curvy roads, but completely useless in town and makes driving more difficult than automatic or manual. Paddle shifting makes sense for racing, but from my bad experience, not for road cars. In my opinion paddle shifters are a stupid trend sold by marketing. I want to blame Ferrari and Porsche for this.

..how is it difficult to switch manual mode on and off when you don't need/want it? even the LFA's single clutch sequential manual has an automatic mode.

otherwise if you're worried about the herky jerky nature of many DCTs at low speeds, that is probably why most rumors for the Supra have pointed to the ZF8 for the TC's smoothness..

 

[tfoxyr]

LC is an awesome drive, but it is NOT a Supra, not even close. Specs don't mean anything, it's all about the drive. And the LC and Supra drive very differently.

Also, not trying to break your heart or anything, but this sentiment about the 86 hasn't changed

The mk5 will feel nothing to the mk4 too , the z4(both roadster and coupe) has less similarities , especially in the way they drive , to the mk4 supra .
Maybe the LC statement i made is wrong sure , but keep in mind that the mk4 had a luxury brother the SC , i kinda paralleled them . Anyway my point is that the mk5 will be a complete different car than the mk4 , this is based on that they are in complete different classes of vehicles , 2 seater , very light , kinda small , the mk4 was never these things . Also how a car feels can be biased and subjective , but the numbers and the ways a car work can never become subjective , with that said a sports car is a purchase with a strong dose of feelings inside it (this is actually a statement from marketing theory , also true about bikes ) , meaning they are more emotionally engaging than say a ''normal'' car .

For the 86 i know that the engineer wants to keep it like that and i truly respect that , but i just don't share his vision . Also i don't mind if the engine is not turbo , it could be supercharged , but some form of FI in my opinion could find its way to a top trim 86 / BRZ . My dream would be an electric turbo , so the engine feels responsive and keep the weight down , so i just hope this technology becomes more accessible in about 2020 .

 

[Guff]

The mk5 will feel nothing to the mk4 too

I disagree

Numbers can't quantify a chassis. Certainly hasn't in all my years of driving. But you're right, in the end, the opinion in a person's head at the end of a drive is very subjective! And while I agree that the MKV will be different from the MKIV, I wholly expect it to. Such is the way of evolution. Drive an Mk3 and Mk4 back to back, they're not the same in regards to size and weight, but there's a definite lineage there. The choices the engineers make in terms of driving characteristics are in the same vein. I drive an 86 and MKIV Supra back to back on a weekly basis, that lineage is there too, and it's very tangible.

Regardless, I'm just rambling at this point. In regards to the 86, I agree, I wouldn't mind some sort of FI, if only just to keep the car fresh. I would hate to see it die after one generation.

 

[tfoxyr]

I agree with what you said there , and i believe all here at the forum are hoping that the car will be good . I won'y buy it because i need those +2 seats but i truly hope it turns out to be amazing like the last one even if it is quite different.

 

[Spilner]

Yeah, basically Akio would create even more sports cars, but the board doesn't even want what they have now. To further complicate that, they didn't want to approve anything until they were shown the success of the 86.

Only after the 86 did they actually approve the Supra, and even now they put up with both in disdain. It's just how car companies are now sadly; almost all R&D aside from refreshes of say Camry, Sienna, etc is done on autonomous driving and alternative fuel.

MFG times are a comin'!

 

[Spilner]

I meant other stuff, like seats, audio, and other stuff I don't need; the safety items are here to stay.

The safety stuff was what killed the MK4, so i can see why Toyota is playing their cards right

 

[mas921]

..how is it difficult to switch manual mode on and off when you don't need/want it? even the LFA's single clutch sequential manual has an automatic mode.

otherwise if you're worried about the herky jerky nature of many DCTs at low speeds, that is probably why most rumors for the Supra have pointed to the ZF8 for the TC's smoothness..

TC's,unlike DCT's, are also bullet proof...

 

[supraboi]

https://carbuzz.com/news/toyota-s-chief-engineer-really-wants-new-supra-to-have-a-manual

Toyota’s Chief Engineer Really Wants New Supra To Have A Manual

New rumors suggest a hybrid version could also be on the cards.

After a 16-year hiatus from the auto industry, the Toyota Supra finally made a triumphant return at this year’s Geneva Motor Show—albeit in the form of the GR Supra Racing Concept. Precious few details were revealed about the car, and while it’s a shame we’re not staring in awe at the final production car, the styling gives us the clearest idea yet of what the final car will look like if you remove the race car bits. Many enthusiasts have also been wondering whether the new Supra will have a manual gearbox. The answer? Maybe.

Sadly, previously leaked information suggested you won’t be rowing the gears manually, which seems like a travesty in a Japanese sports car. The GR Supra Racing Concept doesn’t fill us with hope either, since it sports paddle shifters on the steering wheel and no manual shifter.

(There are three pedals, but the clutch is used to just get the car rolling, rather than shift through the gears.) There’s still hope the reborn Supra will have a manual transmission, though. During an interview at the Geneva Motor Show, AutoGuide spoke to Toyota’s Chief Engineer Tetsuya Tada about the subject.

“It makes perfect sense” for the new Supra to have a manual, Tada-san told the publication. “I will try my hardest,” he promised. After all, the Supra isn’t being designed to set lap records. Instead, Tada-san is working hard to make sure the car is engaging, fun to drive, and that it will have “ease of maneuverability,” which is more important than “quantifiable figures.” This gives us renewed hope the new Supra will please purists by offering a traditional manual. However, Tada-san and his team have been consulting with Supra fanatics to find out their priorities for the reborn sports car. High up on the list was a turbo straight-six engine, a front-engine and rear-wheel drive layout, and the ability to make modifications.

Demand for a manual transmission wasn’t high. Don’t be surprised, then, if the new Supra is only offered with an automatic, but don’t rule out a manual just yet either. A new report by Top Gearsuggests the new Toyota Supra, which is being co-developed with the BMW Z4, will pack a recalibrated BMW engine pumping out 450 horsepower. A hybrid version is also being considered, but plans haven’t been confirmed yet. As for when the reborn Toyota Supra road car will debut? We were previously led to believe it will break cover in just a few weeks at the New York Auto Show, but Top Gear is now reporting it won’t debut until the 2019 Detroit Auto Show next January.

 

[supra85]

Here are some drivetrain possiblities:
https://www.zf.com/corporate/en_de/...ars_6_speed_manual_transmission.shtml#tabs1-1

Manual Transmission:

6-Speed Manual Transmission
Shifting on his own – comfortably and efficiently
For powerful limousines and sports cars, ZF provides a manual transmission with premium qualities: the manual 6-speed transmission combines ease of use with efficient transmission of power. It offers shifting comfort on the highest level to the driver, and by means of numerous technical details, it provides lower fuel consumption at the same time.

Advantages:

• 
  
  
  • High shift comfort through low operating forces, short and precise shift paths
  • Compact construction, weight reduction through lightweight design
  • Very good efficiency
  • Optimal coordination and synchronization
  • Flexible transmission ratio, and adaptable depending on the passenger car engine type
  • Full cost controls through consistent modular conception

Benefits:
Dynamics and precision
The 6-speed manual transmission combines ease of use with efficient transmission of power: the directly shifted fifth speed is ideal for a sporty driving style. The sixth speed can be used for lowering the rotation level at maximum driving speed.

Overview of the current versions of the manual 6-speed transmission by ZF:
Product Type of prime mover Speeds (forw.) Input torque(NM)
S6-37 Lengthwise rear-wheel drive 6 370
S6-45 Lengthwise rear-wheel drive 6 bis 470
S6-53 Lengthwise rear-wheel drive 6 bis 600






7-Speed Manual Transmission
Worldwide First 7-Speed Manual Transmission For Passenger Cars Comes From ZF
The 7-speed manual transmission is the first manual transmission with 7 gears that is available for passenger cars. It was created based on the 7-speed dual clutch transmission by ZF. The 7MT is responsible for the new, fast gear shifting characteristics. The developed converted shifting actuator allows a classic H-shift pattern to be combined with dual-clutch gear sets.

Advantages

• High shifting comfort and sportive shifting forces
• Optimized transmission weight and high effectiveness also contribute to fuel efficiency
• Start-Stop capable
• Patented system to prevent operating error: Shift up into seventh gear immediately after having shifted to fifth or sixth beforehand
• Same components as the 7-speed dual-clutch transmission due to modular system
• Designed for all-wheel systems and slip differential available

Clever Conversion
Reducing noise level and fuel can be saved with the additional 7th gear – it has a high gearing (overdrive), thus a sporty cruising speed is already achieved at a low engine speed.



Automatic Transmission

https://www.zf.com/corporate/en_de/...s/cars_7_speed_dual_clutch_transmission.shtml

7-Speed Dual Clutch Transmission
The sports transmission.
The 7-speed dual clutch transmission makes especially sporty driving performance possible: direct drive and lightning-fast gear changes without interrupting the shear force. The car "sits right on the gas". It also achieves fuel economy better than that of a manual transmission thanks to its excellent fuel efficiency.

Advantages

• Capable of rpm of up to 9,000
• Gear change within a few hundredths of a second, below the level of human perception
• Two sub-transmissions: the first one transfers the propulsive power, and in the second one, the next gear is pre-selected
• Strategy-capable power take-up element is flexibly adjustable depending on the engine characteristics
• Various driving modes: manual, comfort, sport, supersports

Benefits
Dynamic propulsion "right on the gas"
The dual clutch transmission from ZF enables lightning-fast gear changes under load without interrupting the torque. It is thus ideally suited for vehicles with dynamic/sporty designs. In them, the ZF transmission performs a balancing act between pure sportiness and the highest driving comfort.


Overview of ZF dual clutch transmissions for cars:
Product Type of prime mover Speeds (forw.) Input torque (NM)
7DT45HL(A) Rear / 4- Wheel 7 450
7DT45FL Front / longitudinal engine 7 390
7DT70HL(A) Rear / 4- Wheel 7 700
7DT75(A) Rear / 4- Wheel 7 525;750



8-Speed Automatic Transmission

https://www.zf.com/corporate/en_de/...ars/cars_8_speed_automatic_transmission.shtml

Innovation by reduction: efficiency, perfected
With the development of the new 8-speed automatic transmission by ZF, the focus is not on the number of speeds but rather on the minimization of fuel consumption. The new 8HP 8-speed automatic transmission, which was designed to be more lightweight, sets new standards for flexibility, efficiency, and economy. It is an excellent example of how the power of innovation can create a new classic design.


Advantages

• New gear set design: four planetary gear sets and only five shift elements minimize the drag loss and increase the transmission efficiency.
• Optional hydraulic impulse oil storage (HIS) opens up the possibility of the start-stop function and increases the fuel savings potential.
• Integrated transmission control unit with extremely quick response time.
• Basic transmission can be combined with multiple power take-up elements including the torque converter, the hybrid drive, and the integrated power take-up element.
• Full hybrid compatibility: on the basis of the parallel hybrid concept, mild, full and plug-in hybrid systems can be implemented with the basic transmission of the 8-speed automatic transmission.
• The transmission is compatible with the following all-wheel-drive concepts: All-whell drive center differential integrated, integrated all-wheel drive system (IAS©), hang-on all-wheel-drive
• For input torque range from 300 to 1000 newton meter
• Multidisk separation of brakes
• Optimized cooling: less cooling oil for low system pressures, more cooling oil for high system pressures
• Automatic idle shift system at vehicle standstill and engaged service break (stand-by control)

Benefits

One transmission – many possibilities
For the 8-speed automatic transmission, ZF set out to design and develop an entirely new gear set concept. The result is a revolution in transmission design: a transmission concept with 4 gearsets which requires only 5 shift elements – of which only two are open in any given gear. The 8HP also requires no more than 3 multi-disk clutches and 2 brakes, which allows it to achieve a greater degree of efficiency than other concepts. As a result of the fact that only 2 shift elements are open per gear, drag losses in the transmission are sustainably reduced. This effect is supported by the use of a new parallel-axis vane-type oil pump. 4 A torque range from 300 to 1000 newton meter makes the 8HP the perfect partner for all rear-wheel-drive and all-wheel-drive designs. From the lower midsize segment to sporty luxury cars, and in every type of SUV and offroad vehicle – its revolutionary design is always an efficient and economical solution. Although the 8HP features 2 more speeds than the extremely successful 6HP, the dimensions have remained unchanged and the weight was even reduced by 3% to 87 kg (transmission modular system 8HP70) including oil. At the same time, the total transmission ratio spread of 7.0 ensures that the engine is always in its optimum operating range. This translates into improved acceleration and reduced fuel consumption.

Based on a really successful product, it combines dynamics and comfort with improved efficiency – also with regard to the costs. And it is ideally equipped for even stricter fuel consumption and CO2 emission regulations. In the premium and mid-size car range, the optimized 8HP product family enables the average fuel consumption to be cut by another 3%. CO2 emissions decrease to the same extent. These potentials can also be completely transferred to hybrid drives. Incidentally, additional savings potential by a further optimized startstop function is not yet included here. To achieve these innovations, ZF engineers have optimized some details. Thus, the reduction of drag torques and engine speeds further reduced the already very low power losses. Essential success aspects are the higher transmission ratio spread and the reduction of system pressures in many areas. Another factor is the multidisk separation of the brakes. Furthermore, advanced torsional vibration dampers enable a faster bypassing of the hydrodynamic power transmission and therefore further reduction in speed. Thus, the new 8HP is perfectly prepared for use with the new engines (3-8 cylinders) which will determine the trend of the years-to-come.


8-Speed Dual Clutch Transmission

https://www.zf.com/corporate/en_de/...s/cars_8_speed_dual_clutch_transmission.shtml

New sports transmission for rear-wheel and all-wheel drives
Dynamic and efficient: ZF's innovative 8-speed dual clutch transmission forms the basis for a new flexible modular system for front-longitudinal standard, all-wheel and hybrid drives.

Advantages

• Lightning-speed shifts combined with outstanding efficiency and the highest level of comfort
• All-new modular hybrid transmission kit
• Optional hybrid module for electrically powered dynamics and emission-free local driving
  
  

Modular hybrid transmission kit offers a huge range
The new 8-speed dual clutch transmission is available for front-longitudinal configuration in four different variants (standard, all-wheel drive, hybrid, all-wheel hybrid) in three torque classes, to a maximum 1,000 Nm. The torque class is defined by the configuration variety of the dual-clutch modules, with the basic transmission and gear set always remaining the same.This is also true for the transmission hydraulics, shift system, parking lock and control unit, including software.

To make the 8DT basic transmission as small and compact as possible, a new gear set concept with two countershafts and one summation shaft was constructed. The fixed gears, which are all located on the transmission input shafts, can be used several times, resulting in less wheel levels, making the basic transmission significantly shorter in length. This was the only way to maintain the required length of the hybrid module and integrate it into the limited installation space. This gear set architecture offers another advantage. Based on the modular concept, it is not only suitable for front-longitudinal applications but will also be able to cater for other driveline configurations.

 

[jm6k]

Kind of along the lines of clutchless manual in the weird 86 Targa concept, I think it could be interesting to utilize the ZF8 with the clutch pack, but give it an actual clutch pedal. They could retain the paddle shifter auto, but with some added control via the clutch.

Kind of a weird idea, but so is a sports car with an automatic transmission.

 

[A70TTR]

And Guff nailed it.

My final information for you all:

Spoke with a junior engineer and they confirmed the manual was left out due to projected take rate in the US being 20%, with the US also projected to be just over half of all global sales.

That alone did not doom the manual though, apparently US safety mandates along with Toyota compliance in things like collision protection, lane guidance, etc is what did it.

It was going to cost $500m to develop and implement a system capable of moving past these issues and as such they decided to not bother. Apparently going forward, Toyota will no longer build any new manual vehicles which is more or less already done. It is also directly related to why the 86 has no planned updates at this time; not the only reason though.

There is no actual consideration for a manual at this time.

 

[Lexusisf]

A70 thanks as always, with your information.

Maybe I am missing something but how is the manual related to US safety collision protection etc...Are you saying if they built a manual, these items are different than those used with an auto and therefore substantial more/additional costs?

Thanks,

 

[A70TTR]

Systems cannot properly be engaged due to the drivetrain being outside control of the ECU is what I gathered. In other words, gear and clutch control.

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