2020 Supra Transmission Chat - Manual, Dual Clutch, or Auto?

[tfoxyr]

zero development has been done on an 86 successor, so that car will be sold as-is for a few more years and/or discontinued unless they do the right thing and throw the FA20DIT into it. wishful thinking most likely since Subaru seems to have an aversion to putting anything into the car...

Nissan is even more of a disappointment, with no developments aside from whiteboard engineering on the R36, the IDx never made it past concept, and they've openly confirmed zero development has been done on the Z34 successor.

Honda is only doing the CTR, S660, and NSX according to their PR people, but I guess that's better than most.

The silvia got scrapped twice if i am not mistaken once in 2008 and the second time in about 2014? It is rumored that silvia could come back in 3-4 years . Also a new Z is being worked on maybe and it could have a 2 liter also. The 86 just needs an engine upgrade of sorts nothing else to the platform itself in my opinion . For honda i haven't really cared so much , but the sports concept they showed has potential maybe as a hybrid sports car.

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[Guff]

Pass all you want, in the end the superior method is the method I prefer.

Most superior is automation then, surely? Easily could program a car to hit the 'Ring and use sensor data feedback to target optimal. With enough data, a machine learning system could sample enough track work in order to optimally drive at threshold speed on basically any track.

I know of a few people working on this atm actually, it's quite intriguing. I'd probably save some money by just going to the theme park though.

 

[MA617M]

Pass all you want, in the end the superior method is the method I prefer.

no mechanical linkage between rack and steering wheel is not superior. in an electrical fault, you have no control over the wheels. there is no redundancy in an emergency.

IIRC there is no manufacturer silly enough to remove the mechanical linkage. not to mention the size and power requirements of servo required to turn the front wheels under load would be huge.

electrically assisted power steering vs. hydraulic assisted is a different matter. Porsche have proved that electric-assisted steering can work, but so many manufacturers get it wrong

 

[HKz]

Often the choice to have a manual comes at the cost of development money that could be better spent elsewhere on the vehicle. Manuals are slower than automatics now. I'll never for the life of me understand what attachment manual people have to pressing a 3rd petal since you can now control shifting through automanuals now too.

...no one who likes manuals really cares about this fact as this has been true for at least a couple decades now. i get manuals trans aren't everyones cup of tea but you get to directly control and feel mechanical and analog parts, it requires more effort and therefore gives a higher reward/satisfaction. It is same reason why many people still play acoustic guitars or pianos over digital/electronic ones..

 

[MA617M]

and the same reason weirdos like me jump in my 34 year old supra and grin like an idiot**, even when I have a 2010 AMG sitting there as well.

**don't think i could handle a stock one though lol... Boaty McBoatface

 

[Modal170]

...no one who likes manuals really cares about this fact as this has been true for at least a couple decades now. i get manuals trans aren't everyones cup of tea but you get to directly control and feel mechanical and analog parts. It is same reason why many people still play acoustic guitars or pianos over digital/electronic ones..

I get the eanlogy, but you can't compare music to racing.

With music, you open up a whole different world and spectrum of atmosphere depdning on what you are using as an instrument.

 

[Ksim1988]

I'll never for the life of me understand what attachment manual people have to pressing a 3rd petal since you can now control shifting through automanuals now too.

Because for some people owning a sports car is more than just lap times or just to be the quickest.

Sometimes it's just fun to rev up the motor and release the clutch into a corner. And sometimes it's more enjoyable to rev match downshift heel toe etc yourself.

Just look at the Porsche GT3, pure track machine. Why would they bring the manual back even when it's slower?

 

[HKz]

I get the eanlogy, but you can't compare music to racing.

With music, you open up a whole different world and spectrum of atmosphere depdning on what you are using as an instrument.

...and you don't think that is the case with having 2 levers that are directly connected to the mechanics of the car? I play guitar & piano, it is a very comparable feeling switching from analog to digital. They don't feel the same to play despite the notes being the same.

 

[solidsamir]

Most superior is automation then, surely? Easily could program a car to hit the 'Ring and use sensor data feedback to target optimal. With enough data, a machine learning system could sample enough track work in order to optimally drive at threshold speed on basically any track.

I know of a few people working on this atm actually, it's quite intriguing. I'd probably save some money by just going to the theme park though.

You're being intellectually dishonest to prove a point. Obviously you can automate a car for a track, but guess what we don't drive on a closed circuit track every day so we can't automate driving completely every day. The automatic transmission is faster than a manual and better for driving to and from work.

I put people who obsess over manuals are in the same vain as people who obsess over exhaust notes. It's a circlejerk imo.

 

[HKz]

You're being intellectually dishonest to prove a point. Obviously you can automate a car for a track, but guess what we don't drive on a closed circuit track every day so we can't automate driving completely every day. The automatic transmission is faster than a manual and better for driving to and from work.

I put people who obsess over manuals are in the same vain as people who obsess over exhaust notes. It's a circlejerk imo.

naw, you're being unfair by keep trashing on how outdated manuals are and how you don't understand them. it ain't for you, we get it, but a lot of us love them, leave it at that and end of story...

if you think a perfectly executed downshift in a manual trans = the same feeling and satisfaction as clicking a paddle then I'm not sure what else anyone can tell you..

 

[MA617M]

for some people, there is an emotional aspect to owning and driving a car. this includes shifting gears yourself, and how it sounds.

it's all subjective. some people circlejerk over brands, names, 'ring lap times, what others are driving. it's irrelevant.

some people will be happy to drive an awesome sounding, manual car in day to day traffic because no other reason than it makes them smile.

i wouldn't get a manual in a benz, doesn't feel right. But I also would only get a clunky, outdated six speed in my A80 - nothing else feels right.

call it circlejerk all you want, but people enjoy cars for a myriad of reasons, and some are not based on logic, but on emotional aspects.

 

[Guff]

You're being intellectually dishonest to prove a point. Obviously you can automate a car for a track, but guess what we don't drive on a closed circuit track every day so we can't automate driving completely every day. The automatic transmission is faster than a manual and better for driving to and from work.

I put people who obsess over manuals are in the same vain as people who obsess over exhaust notes. It's a circlejerk imo.

You're right, I am just playing devils advocate. I actually have no issues with automatic transmissions, and absolutely love the ZF8HP.

But connected autonomous driving is most definitely faster and better (if you mean easier) for driving to and from work. For a street car, it really is the best way to get around. It's far safer, far more comfortable, and a much better use of your time. And sure, while Level 5 autonomy isn't here yet, it certainly will be soon. And if manufacturers like Toyota didn't bother throwing dollars at completely inconsequential passion projects like the Supra, they most certainly could direct more funds towards making that a reality.

But yet, they continue to make cars for fun, despite the fact that it's not forward thinking or optimized. Just like the manual transmission...

 

[MA617M]

I'm keen to hear more about the ZF8HP. What's it most comparable to in today's market, in terms of transmissions? The 8 speed in the ISF isn't bad, and the 722.9 in the C63 is ok too, but it's not a shade on a Porsche DSG....

 

[Guff]

I'm keen to hear more about the ZF8HP. What's it most comparable to in today's market, in terms of transmissions? The 8 speed in the ISF isn't bad, and the 722.9 in the C63 is ok too, but it's not a shade on a Porsche DSG....

I'm not exactly sure what it compares to tbh. Maybe the new Lexus LC 10-speed? I hear that's pretty good.

So many people are using the ZF box that there really isn't much competition in the sporty TC Auto category. Of course, it's no dual-clutch, but as many people have seen me ramble on about, I strongly prefer a good TC Auto to a dual clutch.

 

[HKz]

You're right, I am just playing devils advocate. I actually have no issues with automatic transmissions, and absolutely love the ZF8HP.

But connected autonomous driving is most definitely faster and better (if you mean easier) for driving to and from work. For a street car, it really is the best way to get around. It's far safer, far more comfortable, and a much better use of your time. And sure, while Level 5 autonomy isn't here yet, it certainly will be soon. And if manufacturers like Toyota didn't bother throwing dollars at completely inconsequential passion projects like the Supra, they most certainly could direct more funds towards making that a reality.

But yet, they continue to make cars for fun, despite the fact that it's not forward thinking or optimized. Just like the manual transmission...

indeed...not looking forward to the day when autonomous drivers look down upon us barbarians who drive our own cars...solidsamir will probably be part of that group since it gets to his destination "faster" :s

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