CSG Feedback (CSG pads)

[UYCR]

How can I get the Secret compound pads that Jackie and a few others i know use for TT?

Pretty sure Jakie sells everything or nearly everything that he runs on the Supra through the PHD Racing website. He runs the C21 front and C11 rear if I remember correctly from the video he posted when doing the brake upgrade to the Pista/GTS system.

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[Rocksandblues]

Pretty sure Jakie sells everything or nearly everything that he runs on the Supra through the PHD Racing website. He runs the C21 front and C11 rear if I remember correctly from the video he posted when doing the brake upgrade to the Pista/GTS system.

There is another TT compound CSG was developing. I know Jackie. He and some others were trying them out at the end of last season. When this set needs replacement in a month or so I will ask him. Only doing a partial TT schedule this season.

 

[CSG]

There is another TT compound CSG was developing. I know Jackie. He and some others were trying them out at the end of last season. When this set needs replacement in a month or so I will ask him. Only doing a partial TT schedule this season.

The StopTech STR-60 and Brembo Pista have vastly different system requirements even if the specifications look similar on paper. Because of that, a pad that works well on the STR-60, won't necessarily be as desirable or optimal as on the Brembo Pista. The STR-60 and Pista also uses pads that have less volume and mass than OEM pad shapes. When you have the same energy getting dumped into a system that has lower mass (effectively less thermal capacity), the requirements change. In current state, we are offering the C21/C11 and CE2/C11 as track/race options for the factory calipers. The CP F/R is for NVH and dust sensitive individuals who focus more on day to day life, but still have performance capacity for the occasional trackday and spirited drive.

 

[CSG]

Pretty sure Jakie sells everything or nearly everything that he runs on the Supra through the PHD Racing website. He runs the C21 front and C11 rear if I remember correctly from the video he posted when doing the brake upgrade to the Pista/GTS system.

He has spent time to provide feedback, both good and bad, to us and we've been communicating often to find ways to give him a better edge whenever possible. End of the day, it is a two-way street when developing a car. Not only does the performance spectrum matter, but the driver has to be capable of making adjustments if the package is already solid. Being critical of one another helps us both grow and that's what allowed us to tailor packages accordingly for the platform. Just because we provide the tools to do exceptionally fast times, it still has to be confident -to you as the user- to be effective.

 

[FLtrackdays]

The manufacturing process and tooling are the most expensive parts. Without those presses, ovens, and other unique pieces of machinery to build the pads, we won't get the level of consistency that we desire. We know how Hawk DTC and Paragons operate and have swept through their catalog of compounds years ago. The C21/C11 is the most basic setup for this vehicle and a few other vehicles that see time attack, HPDE, and sprint racing applications. This particular compound stagger has replaced many common "track pad" in TA, HPDE, and sprint race cars over the years without the replacement of brake equipment. That has been the biggest experience for many users. We do have other compounds for the car slumbering away but we haven't found the need to get those compounds out to market. They are used for other vehicle applications as the brake demand is higher compared to the MKV Supra. In those instances, many brake compounds available on the market would tend to vaporize in those settings.

What has your experience been with the Paragon (which compounds?) and Hawks?

Without looking at Brian’s (razorlab) page, the Paragons I used were the P7s, their most expensive pad. I tried them only because a real world driver recommended them. There was nothing wrong with them other than they didn’t last long and I could not tell a huge difference from my Hawk DTC60s. Talking front pads for track use/comparison only and lap times. There was no difference in my lap times. I don’t want to compare to Jackie. That being said…

I’d be willing to make an honest comparison with them. I’m sure I’m not alone. I’d even pay $100 more for a set of CSG 21/11s. Would you be willing to sell them for $500 front and rear? Same as the going rate for Hawk DTC 60/30s. We could all come back to this thread and mark how many track days we get from them and our lap times. There is no reason for deception. I too would like to be as fast as Jackie (only a pinch of sarcasm because we all know it takes a lot more than a set of brake pads to put down consistent lap times).

I’m sure Brian @razorlab and many others would love to do this for the same price as Hawks or give some of us a few sets. I would really like to see if they are worth 2x the price I’m paying for the Hawk DTC 60s . Appreciate your consideration in doing so. This would be a fantastic opportunity for CSG to get real world user’s experience. I’ll be on a new set of Hawk DTC 60/30s this weekend at Homestead and Sebring in 2 weeks (4 HPDE track days - what most of us do here). We can all follow how long they last and I can do an average of track times at both tracks.

@Rocksandblues is your best sponsor on this forum. He’s got tons of experience and a great driver. From what I’ve seen of his videos. With that said, I’d love to see his comparison of these $1000 pads vs the Hawk DTC 60/30s.

 

[CSG]

Without looking at Brian’s (razorlab) page, the Paragons I used were the P7s, their most expensive pad. I tried them only because a real world driver recommended them. There was nothing wrong with them other than they didn’t last long and I could not tell a huge difference from my Hawk DTC60s. Talking front pads for track use/comparison only and lap times. There was no difference in my lap times. I don’t want to compare to Jackie. That being said…

I’d be willing to make an honest comparison with them. I’m sure I’m not alone. I’d even pay $100 more for a set of CSG 21/11s. Would you be willing to sell them for $500 front and rear? Same as the going rate for Hawk DTC 60/30s. We could all come back to this thread and mark how many track days we get from them and our lap times. There is no reason for deception. I too would like to be as fast as Jackie (only a pinch of sarcasm because we all know it takes a lot more than a set of brake pads to put down consistent lap times).

I’m sure Brian @razorlab and many others would love to do this for the same price as Hawks or give some of us a few sets. I would really like to see if they are worth 2x the price I’m paying for the Hawk DTC 60s . Appreciate your consideration in doing so. This would be a fantastic opportunity for CSG to get real world user’s experience. I’ll be on a new set of Hawk DTC 60/30s this weekend at Homestead and Sebring in 2 weeks (4 HPDE track days - what most of us do here). We can all follow how long they last and I can do an average of track times at both tracks.

@Rocksandblues is your best sponsor on this forum. He’s got tons of experience and a great driver. From what I’ve seen of his videos. With that said, I’d love to see his comparison of these $1000 pads vs the Hawk DTC 60/30s.

Those are all very reasonable points especially when you're used to seeing highly visible manufacturers like Hawk on SCCA and NASA sponsored banners around the country.

Based on your post, it sounds like you're on a journey to try out different brake pads - it's great to understand the differences and nuances presented by every manufacturer's style and flavor of brake pads. You don't have to be a Jackie to really see the benefits of good brake compounds, but having that level of pedal consistency will simply make drivers more confident in attacking braking zones. With that said, the PhD Racing team has spent quite a bit of time testing different pads and brake equipment. If you're ever curious on what they've done, you can reach out to them and also find out why they decided to stick to the silver.

Sebring is a nice hard course on brakes. If you have some caliper temp stickers on hand, stick some on the calipers when you go out and report back. It'll be good data to see how you use your equipment.

 

[dzeleski]

If you find that your braking is giving you that 8 second differential between you and Jackie at COTA, then let's find a way to give you that edge.

Id recommend hiring someone that does PR if you are gonna ask for info and then act like that. Its such a terrible take for a company to make. Especially on the subject of pads. Anyone that has ever been on track knows brake feel is completely subjective. I think there is a bit of a difference between someone going to the track a handful of times a year and someone like Jackie that is at the track nearly every weekend of the year all over the country with a team behind him and multiple sponsors. Absolutely insane thing to say.

Last year I was running the following on recommendation from Jackie:
CSG CP front pads
CSG CE1 rear pads

I dont like this setup, the main reason why is because its far to expensive and the difference between something like carbotech isnt enough to justify the price. Both CSG pads dust quite a bit although the CP pad is 100% less then the OEM pad, the CE1 pads dust way more and these are unreasonable for street use imo. The CE1 pads squeal like a pig on the street because the transfer layer wont sick around very long. I will say they do bed back in quickly but also become juddery very easily. Which seems to require heavy heat to fix. Carbotech has a similar issue as well on occasion but not nearly as bad at least in my experience. The CE1 rear pad was the first digressive pad I have used and I did not like it very much, I generally prefer as close to linear as I can get. Maybe the mix between progressive and digressive wasnt for me im not sure but I didnt like it. Maybe I would like a matched set or a different compound but im not gonna throw away $1000 dollars on pads again when I know other cheaper pads do what I personally need for a fun streetcar that can go to the track a couple of times a year.

I can almost get a set of carbotech for the street and a set for the track for basically the same price as one set of CSG pads. Thats a huge issue if you goal is to get more people to buy these things. For someone like myself that is not racing anymore these pads make very little sense. It would make far more sense to get a set of carbo 1521s/AX6/XP8 (or similar) for the street and a set of XP12/10 for the track. Which is probably what ill be doing for this year.

If CL made a pad for the a90 thats what I would be using personally. I raced with them for years and their feel and consistency is by far my favorite.

 

[razorlab]

I’m sure Brian @razorlab and many others would love to do this for the same price as Hawks or give some of us a few sets. I would really like to see if they are worth 2x the price I’m paying for the Hawk DTC 60s . Appreciate your consideration in doing so. This would be a fantastic opportunity for CSG to get real world user’s experience. I’ll be on a new set of Hawk DTC 60/30s this weekend at Homestead and Sebring in 2 weeks (4 HPDE track days - what most of us do here). We can all follow how long they last and I can do an average of track times at both tracks.

I have a set of CSG C21/C11 pads new in a box that has been sitting on my shelf for a year now. All last year, over 20 track days, the Project Mu Club Racers worked fantastically for me. So I found no reason to switch. They also cost $400 for front/rear, less than half of what the CSG's cost. I have two more sets of front/rear PMU Club Racers ready to go.

At that cost difference, it's a no brainer for me.

I'll use them until I need more pad. Since I am increasing power this year, I might dust off those CSG pads and see how they do.

 

[CSG]

I have a set of CSG C21/C11 pads new in a box that has been sitting on my shelf for a year now. All last year, over 20 track days, the Project Mu Club Racers worked fantastically for me. So I found no reason to switch. They also cost $400 for front/rear, less than half of what the CSG's cost. I have two more sets of front/rear PMU Club Racers ready to go.

At that cost difference, it's a no brainer for me.

I'll use them until I need more pad. Since I am increasing power this year, I might dust off those CSG pads and see how they do.

At 20 days with the PMU CR, it's very difficult to walk away from that proposition. We do sell Project Mu, Carbotech, G-LOC, Hawk, CL, Ferodo, Endless, and other pad compounds for a variety of different platforms. Each have its place in the market, but we choose the path of the latest advancement in brake materials and technology, latest manufacturing techniques, performance scalability; performance against new tire compounds/aero development/chassis development; ease of use and intuitiveness; and a level of technical support that extends from new drivers to well into the professional market. The idea of "better" braking performance has always been our goal.

Anytime you replace with new pads, make sure calipers are serviced accordingly and discs are flat (or new). Give C21/C11 a fair shot when you get the chance. Love or hate them, the feedback is well received.

Id recommend hiring someone that does PR if you are gonna ask for info and then act like that. Its such a terrible take for a company to make. Especially on the subject of pads. Anyone that has ever been on track knows brake feel is completely subjective. I think there is a bit of a difference between someone going to the track a handful of times a year and someone like Jackie that is at the track nearly every weekend of the year all over the country with a team behind him and multiple sponsors. Absolutely insane thing to say.

Last year I was running the following on recommendation from Jackie:
CSG CP front pads
CSG CE1 rear pads

I dont like this setup, the main reason why is because its far to expensive and the difference between something like carbotech isnt enough to justify the price. Both CSG pads dust quite a bit although the CP pad is 100% less then the OEM pad, the CE1 pads dust way more and these are unreasonable for street use imo. The CE1 pads squeal like a pig on the street because the transfer layer wont sick around very long. I will say they do bed back in quickly but also become juddery very easily. Which seems to require heavy heat to fix. Carbotech has a similar issue as well on occasion but not nearly as bad at least in my experience. The CE1 rear pad was the first digressive pad I have used and I did not like it very much, I generally prefer as close to linear as I can get. Maybe the mix between progressive and digressive wasnt for me im not sure but I didnt like it. Maybe I would like a matched set or a different compound but im not gonna throw away $1000 dollars on pads again when I know other cheaper pads do what I personally need for a fun streetcar that can go to the track a couple of times a year.

I can almost get a set of carbotech for the street and a set for the track for basically the same price as one set of CSG pads. Thats a huge issue if you goal is to get more people to buy these things. For someone like myself that is not racing anymore these pads make very little sense. It would make far more sense to get a set of carbo 1521s/AX6/XP8 (or similar) for the street and a set of XP12/10 for the track. Which is probably what ill be doing for this year.

If CL made a pad for the a90 thats what I would be using personally. I raced with them for years and their feel and consistency is by far my favorite.

You're right, we responded the way Kyle has been responding to us over the last few months and that would appear to be very disrespectful on the internet. From our point of view, PhD and CSG have already been working together to cut that differential right after the event. Whether or not Kyle appreciates that level of effort is another topic, but ultimately that's the level of success we want out of our clients especially if they desire it as well. Intensities are matched - if we don't tackle these things seriously, then we are simply doing him a disservice.

Interesting combo and thoughtful feedback on your CP/CE1 experience. Have you provided those thoughts to Jackie and the PhD team as well? These are good notes for us. CP F/R would have been the ideal dual purpose activity.

Carbotech offers well priced products. Definitely recommend keeping multiple sets on hand to replace as necessary. Those pads have a very specific window of operation that you can manage with extra parts or pedal mindfulness.

CL is an interesting pad - quite good as a sintered race pad for the price point, but do require you to pump major cooling into the brake system and don't last nearly as long as our basic compounds in the same race. Our South American race clients, who were long time CL customers, were the ones who cleaned out our AP inventory of C21 pads a couple times after noting significant improvements in brake stability and confidence. Unfortunately, they aren't Supras so it's a little irrelevant considering those cars have none of the electronics and safety features that the Supra has.

 

[razorlab]

At 20 days with the PMU CR, it's very difficult to walk away from that proposition.

Two sets of front pads, still on the same rear pads.

 

[dzeleski]

At 20 days with the PMU CR, it's very difficult to walk away from that proposition. We do sell Project Mu, Carbotech, G-LOC, Hawk, CL, Ferodo, Endless, and other pad compounds for a variety of different platforms. Each have its place in the market, but we choose the path of the latest advancement in brake materials and technology, latest manufacturing techniques, performance scalability; performance against new tire compounds/aero development/chassis development; ease of use and intuitiveness; and a level of technical support that extends from new drivers to well into the professional market. The idea of "better" braking performance has always been our goal.

Anytime you replace with new pads, make sure calipers are serviced accordingly and discs are flat (or new). Give C21/C11 a fair shot when you get the chance. Love or hate them, the feedback is well received.




You're right, we responded the way Kyle has been responding to us over the last few months and that would appear to be very disrespectful on the internet. From our point of view, PhD and CSG have already been working together to cut that differential right after the event. Whether or not Kyle appreciates that level of effort is another topic, but ultimately that's the level of success we want out of our clients especially if they desire it as well. Intensities are matched - if we don't tackle these things seriously, then we are simply doing him a disservice.

Interesting combo and thoughtful feedback on your CP/CE1 experience. Have you provided those thoughts to Jackie and the PhD team as well? These are good notes for us. CP F/R would have been the ideal dual purpose activity.

Carbotech offers well priced products. Definitely recommend keeping multiple sets on hand to replace as necessary. Those pads have a very specific window of operation that you can manage with extra parts or pedal mindfulness.

CL is an interesting pad - quite good as a sintered race pad for the price point, but do require you to pump major cooling into the brake system and don't last nearly as long as our basic compounds in the same race. Our South American race clients, who were long time CL customers, were the ones who cleaned out our AP inventory of C21 pads a couple times after noting significant improvements in brake stability and confidence. Unfortunately, they aren't Supras so it's a little irrelevant considering those cars have none of the electronics and safety features that the Supra has.

Im not interested in getting in between public beef but customers read this stuff and then make a judgement. Look at some of the vendors here around tuning if youd like to see an example of that lol.

I didnt, largely because I used to race and I know that Jackie has more important things to worry about then my street car that sees the track 3 times a year. If I was going to the track 60 days a year like I used to I wouldve been more vocal about it.

I had some really strange instability from 150-100 at NJMP thunder. Couldnt brake as late (hard) as I wanted without risking too much. Its hard to describe via text but its almost like each wheel would pulse with slightly different amounts of friction and the car would just wobble laterally a touch. Its almost like if I warmed the front or rear to fast or too slow things started to get unhappy. Hard to describe. Im running rt660 for tires if you care.

I didnt HATE the pads just to be clear, but the price makes it harder to swallow. I dont personally need 2, 5, or even 10% better performance. I just need a good solid pad that can handle hard street driving with some track use here and there. Which I totally understand is hard to do for a 500+ whp car that is 3300lbs.

I have the most experience with their C60 pads (motorcycles) and I loved them. I then tried RC6e pads for 4 wheels and it was a similar experience. But that was done in a lighter car, 3300 is heavy. Im also used to less brake boost, it took a while to get used to the supras softer feel and im not sure if that is partially pad and brake system or entirely brake system. The master stiffener helped but the pedal throw still throws me off.

 

[FLtrackdays]

Maybe I would like a matched set or a different compound but im not gonna throw away $1000 dollars on pads again when I know other cheaper pads do what I personally need for a fun streetcar that can go to the track a couple of times a year.

That really is the bottom line. Why pay $1000 bucks when I’m going to have a fantastic weekend this weekend at Homestead. The point of owning this Supra (to me) is that I’m not paying Porsche or Vette prices for consumables. The more I think about it, I’m loving this Supra even more for not being stuck in a $1000 compound pad like some cars are. It has noting to do with SCCA or NASA banners or advertisement. It has everything to do with real world confidence and track times. The fastest Supra in my neck of the woods is using Hawks. BMW, Porsche, Vette owners and the likes are pretty impressed with this guys times. Myself included.

Additionally, we all know there are tons of racers that use every other brand out there. Tons!!!! In every racing league. I have a friend that races in WRL, currently winning and his team uses Hawks. Another buddy in IMSA, same story. I’ve found every team likes whatever brand is sponsoring them = free race pads. I’m more interested in people that are using your pads that don’t have a vested interest in doing so.

The bottom line, it’s time to bring your prices to match your competition. There’s a lot of us driving safely, quickly, and having tons of fun while doing so at 1/2 the price! It’s time for a C$G market adjustment. $o when you do, I’d give them a try only because @Rocksandblues recommends them. No other reason to be completely honest.

Edit: Thank you for taking the time to be on here and listen to our concerns. That’s another reason why I’d buy your pads (when your price becomes competitive).

 

[Rocksandblues]

I am a CSG fan. I track hard and often- go through two sets of fronts a season and one rear. Rotors every other season. CSG pads last longer than others.
I have tried OEM- Hawk- Mu- and CSG
Mu 999 are really really good and cost less
Hawks save you even more.

Are CSG worth $xxx more per set??? Only you can decide that. The guy behind the steering wheel is waaaaaay more critical for overall lap times. But i feel in my Time Trials the CSG is worth .2-.5 seconds a lap. I have won little plastic trophies and plaques but no $$ of course so it is just an ego thing honestly. We all spend stupid money on this sport/hobby/illness.

I have sold other Supra drivers on CSG pads when they are skeptical and then ride with me. I brake violently at the threshold and the brakes want to throw the passenger through the windshield.

You can brake late and hard lap after lap after lap and the CSG pads perform every single time.
At VIR i hit 160 on back stretch and brake between 3-4 boards and am trail braking into roller coaster right on the edge.... Not many pads can do that lap after lap. But also not many drivers are pushing like that either.

We all have fun- pick your poison. YOu can catch fish on a $25 Zebco and you can catch fish on a $200 rod too.

 

[CSG]

Im not interested in getting in between public beef but customers read this stuff and then make a judgement. Look at some of the vendors here around tuning if youd like to see an example of that lol.

I didnt, largely because I used to race and I know that Jackie has more important things to worry about then my street car that sees the track 3 times a year. If I was going to the track 60 days a year like I used to I wouldve been more vocal about it.

I had some really strange instability from 150-100 at NJMP thunder. Couldnt brake as late (hard) as I wanted without risking too much. Its hard to describe via text but its almost like each wheel would pulse with slightly different amounts of friction and the car would just wobble laterally a touch. Its almost like if I warmed the front or rear to fast or too slow things started to get unhappy. Hard to describe. Im running rt660 for tires if you care.

I didnt HATE the pads just to be clear, but the price makes it harder to swallow. I dont personally need 2, 5, or even 10% better performance. I just need a good solid pad that can handle hard street driving with some track use here and there. Which I totally understand is hard to do for a 500+ whp car that is 3300lbs.

I have the most experience with their C60 pads (motorcycles) and I loved them. I then tried RC6e pads for 4 wheels and it was a similar experience. But that was done in a lighter car, 3300 is heavy. Im also used to less brake boost, it took a while to get used to the supras softer feel and im not sure if that is partially pad and brake system or entirely brake system. The master stiffener helped but the pedal throw still throws me off.

Whew! Catching up - busy day so far, but at least we have some time to hop onto the forums for a response - so thank you for your patience on this!

With regards to the pad staggering and your experience. The pad compounds themselves have different modulus or compressibility. That different stiffness can provide different response rates. For example, let's take a 1000grit sand paper with option of using two different extremes for a sanding block mediums - a block of hardwood and a standard dishwashing sponge. When using either sanding block mediums, the notable difference is the amount of pressure applied to gain roughly the same sanding qualities despite having the same "friction values". In other words, Pad A that exhibits 0.5-0.6mu characteristic will have different stiffness qualities compared to Pad B despite having the same 0.5-0.6mu characteristic on paper. To further elevate that idea, a high friction soft compound may not respond as quickly as a very stiff low friction material.

In your specific case, the CP is a performance compound with is base as a street performance application with a performance ceiling suitable for light track activities. As a street base, NVH and dust are taken in strong consideration during the development on top of the performance spectrum. On the other hand, the CE1 is a staple low friction endurance race compound that is specifically used as a rear pad. Because the CE1 is, first and foremost, a race compound, NVH/dust are not part of the requirements for compound development. Its primary goal is to function well under ABS stress and the stresses of racing.

As you're finding out with your extensive driving/riding resume, the rear activates a little sooner than the front, which gives you a feeling of instability (think overutilizing your right foot for the rear brakes on a bike and finding the rear end twitch while you're gentle on the left lever). The upside is, you'll force the car to brake more flat than if you had a brake setup that makes the car dive over the front axle. The downside is, the car tends to transfer weight towards the front under braking and because you're reducing the load over the rear tires, the amount of tire grip available to brake is reduced. This reduction in grip forces the vehicle's electronics to redistribute braking load and activate ABS prematurely to mitigate rear lockup during braking.

Something that hasn't been discussed is fade assist. Because of your extensive experience, you're probably thinking you're not driving very hard, but the reality is, your pace is always going to be significantly higher than newer drivers. Higher pace equates to more energy potential and required kinetic energy dissipation. In other words, by crushing the pedal to meet a certain desired braking zone, you're also activating the fade assist sooner and getting into the "soft pedal" feeling. If your pedal is firm after parking the car for a couple hours, then it's the special feature. If your pedal remains spongy and soft after parking the car for a long time, then it's fluid. Modern equipment is annoying in that sense. Finding that unique dynamic synergy between electronic intervention and mechanical balance was quite a task that took a few months to understand back in 2019-2020.

Reviews like yours are something we would have loved to hear about after your first couple events to diagnose some of the issues you had. By bottling it up, it comes in as a total disappointment after being promised good performance. Generally speaking, we do our best to follow-up with our direct orders to find out how owners can better utilize the equipment or potentially troubleshoot some issues they may have. We do follow-up with our dealers/distributors as well to find out what other tidbits of support they may need to ensure the success of their clients as well.

 

[CSG]

That really is the bottom line. Why pay $1000 bucks when I’m going to have a fantastic weekend this weekend at Homestead. The point of owning this Supra (to me) is that I’m not paying Porsche or Vette prices for consumables. The more I think about it, I’m loving this Supra even more for not being stuck in a $1000 compound pad like some cars are. It has noting to do with SCCA or NASA banners or advertisement. It has everything to do with real world confidence and track times. The fastest Supra in my neck of the woods is using Hawks. BMW, Porsche, Vette owners and the likes are pretty impressed with this guys times. Myself included.

Additionally, we all know there are tons of racers that use every other brand out there. Tons!!!! In every racing league. I have a friend that races in WRL, currently winning and his team uses Hawks. Another buddy in IMSA, same story. I’ve found every team likes whatever brand is sponsoring them = free race pads. I’m more interested in people that are using your pads that don’t have a vested interest in doing so.

The bottom line, it’s time to bring your prices to match your competition. There’s a lot of us driving safely, quickly, and having tons of fun while doing so at 1/2 the price! It’s time for a C$G market adjustment. $o when you do, I’d give them a try only because @Rocksandblues recommends them. No other reason to be completely honest.

Edit: Thank you for taking the time to be on here and listen to our concerns. That’s another reason why I’d buy your pads (when your price becomes competitive).

We wouldn't pay for free either.

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