Differences when using external WGs

[shaloot]

Forgive me if these are obvious but I’m new to this platform and am trying to weigh the differences / risks when using external wastegates vs kits that retain the stock external gate.
Can anyone please provide feedback, I’ve searched most of the forum.
Specifically tuning differences and any downsides in needing to use a boost controller.
Is it harder to tune & control? Do they flutter on these cars? Has anyone had overboost scenarios, due to hardware or tuning issues, melted or leaking vacuum / boost lines?
I think my short term power goals of 700ish warrant keeping the electronic WG and going with the Remnant kit, but the ricer in me really wants top mount & external gates. Because long term, would likely drop in pistons and rods, to shoot for an 800-900 reliable street build.
Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Sponsored

 

[Thraxbert]

For whatever it's worth:

Remnant Performance is working on an alternative hot side for the 65 Omega that will give up a few hundred RPM of spool in exchange for supporting 800-900WHP. It'll cost a few hundred bucks and is a bolt-on upgrade, don't even need to take the turbo out.

You'll never have to mess with WGs, boost controllers, vacuum lines, over boost, etc. The DME and valvetronic will take care of all of it.

 

[razorlab]

800-900 reliable street build.

 

[shaloot]

Well reliable enough lol. Please forget I mentioned anything about future plans etc, trying to focus on the tuning with external WGs around the 600 whp mark.

I know exactly zero people that have tuned these cars, Ecutek, BM3, etc so far - all of my experience is with other platforms.
Have not been able to find any direct feedback from actual tuners or people that worked very closely with their tuners on any downsides of adding a boost controller and externals to this car.
Majority of Supras seem to be hybrid turbos and stock electronic WG and all of those seem to run quite flawlessly, I just personally would rather get the top mount & fueling to start and keep the power lower until other mods like pistons happen down the road, skipping the whole hybrid turbo thing.

I rode in a couple of top mount MK5’s, and one had a strange air sound before reaching peak boost, like before the WG should open. Then while it was open it seemed to flutter and struggle to keep the boost smooth. Also heard of one that spiked hard and bent a rod. Not clear if it was due to install or tuning error, leaking lines, etc. no idea who tuned these cars.

But maybe not finding much is a good thing and says that there really are no issues with switching and that most people have no issues running them

If anyone with direct experience would be willing to indulge my questions please let me know, thanks

 

[Thraxbert]

The reason people largely stick with turbos in the stock locatkon is because the EWG is very good, and the whole engine is thermally and electronically packaged to put a turbo down low on the block. Even many of the big power top mount builds are going down low for these reasons, and the options to make power in the OEM location are expanding on the regular.

The Supra is not an early 2000s turbo car. It doesn't need a pneumatic WG or a top mount to be at its best. Arguably, it will get worse. Harder to tune. Less efficient. Less sophisticated. Less capable. Especially on the street. You talk about "hybrid turbo" like it's some sort of middle step to be skipped for the REAL thing, but you're sleeping on exactly the solution that is right for your power and reliability goals.

I don't know how or why the Supra community got fixated on the term "hybrid turbo." But I would argue it's a misnomer (at best), and carries negative connotations that causes people to make unjustified rejections of the category.

It's a turbo. It's not hybridized with anything. Some go up top. Some go down low.

 

[Alec-RemnantPerformance]

@shaloot the truth is that the 65 OMEGA isn’t really a hybrid turbo. We adapted our full frame OMEGA series CHRA and put it in our own significantly larger version of the factory turbine housing / exhaust manifold. Our runners are even an inch longer than stock for better top end and to allow the compressor housing of the 65 OMEGA to clear haha.

At any rate, we built the turbo kit around the 65 OMEGA to be a platform. As @Thraxbert alluded to, our current Street / Road Racing turbine housing allows us to hit the goals we needed to support RoadRacing community where they can’t downshift mid corner to get their car into power. They have to stay in 4th gear and rpms get down to about 3,500rpms and power out of the hole. With the kit as is, we can provide well over 700ftlbs by 3,700rpms to get them out the corner in a hurry!

As part of the platform, we are working on our Drag Racing housing that will be released next year that will allow the same exact 65 OMEGA to easily meet or exceed you maximum power goals as we will still do so by sacrificing as little spool as possible and still utilizing the factory electronic wastegate actuator. The housings will be able to be swapped with a simple VBand connection on the CHRA and due to all the coolant and oil lines being converted from factory hard lines to braided AN lines, you done even have to fully remove the turbo for the swap. The rest of the turbo kit then fits right back up exactly the same as before!

In the meantime, by providing the widest possible powerband, the Road Race housing will allow you to surprise quite a few folks on the street, road course and even the drag strip

 

[shaloot]

Thank you both.
Agreed on the term “hybrid” needing to be thrown away.
And I greatly appreciate the detailed responses. remnant will cover my immediate goals for sure.
This is turning into more of a “what’s best for me and my goals thread” though and that’s my own fault for rambling on about what I want, sorry for that.
Just trying to collect any tuning experiences specifically using external WGs, how it’s been great or how it’s been tough.
Thanks again

 

[shaloot]

The reason people largely stick with turbos in the stock locatkon is because the EWG is very good, and the whole engine is thermally and electronically packaged to put a turbo down low on the block. Even many of the big power top mount builds are going down low for these reasons, and the options to make power in the OEM location are expanding on the regular.

The Supra is not an early 2000s turbo car. It doesn't need a pneumatic WG or a top mount to be at its best. Arguably, it will get worse. Harder to tune. Less efficient. Less sophisticated.

From what I’ve heard, fully agreed.
Forgive me for prodding but why is it harder to tune external gates opposed to the electronic stock one? That’s what I’m trying to find details on and while I ignorantly think you are correct, I haven’t spoken to enough people yet to find out what exactly why

 

[shaloot]

@shaloot the truth is that the 65 OMEGA isn’t really a hybrid turbo. We adapted our full frame OMEGA series CHRA and put it in our own significantly larger version of the factory turbine housing / exhaust manifold. Our runners are even an inch longer than stock for better top end and to allow the compressor housing of the 65 OMEGA to clear haha.

At any rate, we built the turbo kit around the 65 OMEGA to be a platform. As @Thraxbert alluded to, our current Street / Road Racing turbine housing allows us to hit the goals we needed to support RoadRacing community where they can’t downshift mid corner to get their car into power. They have to stay in 4th gear and rpms get down to about 3,500rpms and power out of the hole. With the kit as is, we can provide well over 700ftlbs by 3,700rpms to get them out the corner in a hurry!

As part of the platform, we are working on our Drag Racing housing that will be released next year that will allow the same exact 65 OMEGA to easily meet or exceed you maximum power goals as we will still do so by sacrificing as little spool as possible and still utilizing the factory electronic wastegate actuator. The housings will be able to be swapped with a simple VBand connection on the CHRA and due to all the coolant and oil lines being converted from factory hard lines to braided AN lines, you done even have to fully remove the turbo for the swap. The rest of the turbo kit then fits right back up exactly the same as before!

In the meantime, by providing the widest possible powerband, the Road Race housing will allow you to surprise quite a few folks on the street, road course and even the drag strip

Thanks for replying I appreciate you. And I’m already sold on your kit, issue is I don’t have the car yet lol but something is going on 6 months after I take delivery of one of the several deposits I’m waiting on.
I love the modular approach you guys are taking.
do you have any plans to go bigger in the future with a different manifold using externals?

I appreciate that what I’m about to say is bonafide 2000’s ricer talk but to me the experience of a turbo car with a modest exhaust, loud spool, and external gates w/ dump pipes can’t be beaten.
Not ashamed to say I want external WGs for the sound only. But I am attempting to talk myself down off the ledge and stick with something that makes more sense, thus why I ask about negative experiences or down sides to using externals.

Sponsored