Forbes Article States 3.0 I-6 w/ 360 Horsepower, Spring '19, $60k

[Spilner]

these articles have become something I actually enjoy reading because I sit there and wonder, if this information is that far off the mark then what about the other stuff they report on?

that said, I think Forbes is generally quite good when it comes to reporting on business, tech news, etc, so maybe they should just steer clear of the rumor mill lol.

-----------------------------------------

as an aside and without pushing into other areas, marketing typically chooses what goes where, but to my knowledge what was said previously still holds true. I still haven't heard anything about the 4yl car since we last discussed it however, so who knows what is going down with that thing.

We also have to take into consideration the fact that Toyota looked down upon the 718 getting a 4Cyl

Sponsored

 

[PerformanceSound]

...having said that some or all of us may be disappointed in one way or another, as they cant accomodate everyones wishes on personal choices many mentioned here such as two/four seater, manual or not etc....So anxious to see it and get the details!

Good point...I really don’t care too much for the branding (i.e., Supra, GR, etc...), so that won’t be a factor that will disappoint me. However, if Toyota is planning to build a halo car for $60k (top tier), it better be making Vette killing power or outperforming a Vette....at least that. If not, that will be the disappointing factor for me. Reliability and over engineering I am confident Toyota will have that covered.

 

[vb22]

Just a thought, but maybe they are testing the prototypes with the 4 banger for a new rumored "Z3/86" replacement. I recall an older article where a BMW spokesman state that the joint platform with Toyota will underpin more future sports cars.

 

[Captain_Kirk]

SCOTT26 said if the Z4 does well than we may see more sports products being offered. And awhile back he did mention something about a Toyota teaming up with BMW for a 86 successor.

 

[A70TTR]

At the risk of sounding like an ass, I would ABSOLUTELY take a next gen 86 born of this collab vs Subaru lol.

 

[DevonK]

At the risk of sounding like an ass, I would ABSOLUTELY take a next gen 86 born of this collab vs Subaru lol.

X100. Loved many things about that car, but that terrible Subie engine killed it for me. Plus the infotainment system blows chunks, it belongs in a 10 year old Lada. (Also, it needs a rev-matching toggle.)

 

[HKz]

X100. Loved many things about that car, but that terrible Subie engine killed it for me. Plus the infotainment system blows chunks, it belongs in a 10 year old Lada. (Also, it needs a rev-matching toggle.)

to be fair, the infotainment, among other things with the platform, was made that way for easy swaps, but clearly that is not the point of the car....neither is having rev matching, the focus was to have it as analog as possible. i get it that isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it goes to show that cars like the 86 & supra shouldn't be developed by committee..

 

[SupraStew85]

At the risk of sounding like an ass, I would ABSOLUTELY take a next gen 86 born of this collab vs Subaru lol.

I 125% agree with you, I own a 1997 jdm v3 Impreza STI the car is incredibly fun, 300hp stock and with 4:44 gears, and a curb weight around 2,800lbs it is an absolute rocket. Although I am religious with maintenance I am constantly worried about something breaking on that car having had so many friends that have experienced mass engine failure. This is something I have never worried with my mk2 Supra that is 11 years older has more miles and gets driven considerably farther and harder the the Subaru. Flat 4 engines are fun and can potentially make gobs of power, they have a lower the centre of gravity and bah blah blah...BUT they are typically heavier and longevity has always been a serious issue even with religious maintenance. I have yet to see any "performance oriented" Subaru flat four power-plant outlast anything from other competitors from the same price range (Toyota and Mazda etc.). Personally I doubt you will see engines from our generation of 86's lasting nearly the same length of time as the original 86's. Because of this I think that many enthusiasts are holding off on purchasing one due to the drivetrain reliability stigma. This brings me to my next point:

I enjoyed the "cheap fun" factor of the frs, I have driven both stock and modified examples and I LOVED how they handled and felt. Light fun and responsive even in stock form But some people have unrealistic expectations of what the 86/BRZ/frs "should be". Back in the day the original AE86's were a fully optioned out corollas, but it wasn't what anyone would call luxury. I agree they did have an incredible drivetrain that sounded amazing and were also light and fun but they were never "fast" per say, and it still retained a solid rear axle. Some people don't realize back in the day those cars were tin cans, cheap barebones commuter cars with performance oriented options that transformed Toyotas little family runabout into an icon through pop culture. With drifting becoming popular in North America and shows like Initial D hyped the original 86 up much like Fast and Furious with the Supra.
Because of this there are so many people that are reviewing this new frs/86/brz car sounding underwhelmed, expecting 45,000$ car quality (Im talking interior and drivetrain mainly) out of a 25,000$ car. I feel like this disappointed feeling has a very high likelihood of occuring again with the new Supra if people expect the world from it like they did with the frs. I want this car to be as much of an enthusiasts car as everyone else, and I believe that Toyota realizes this and is taking extra precautions with testing and keeping quiet about the car for longer then normal to avoid hiccups like with the frs. The level of scrutiny this car is under even before anything official has been released by Toyota is immense, just imagine what will what will happen when it is officially revealed and the first vehicles are released. People are only going to become more and more critical because EVERYONE wants this car to be "perfect" hence the long term wait for a release from Toyota.

 

[jm6k]

X100. Loved many things about that car, but that terrible Subie engine killed it for me. Plus the infotainment system blows chunks, it belongs in a 10 year old Lada. (Also, it needs a rev-matching toggle.)

to be fair, the infotainment, among other things with the platform, was made that way for easy swaps, but clearly that is not the point of the car....neither is having rev matching, the focus was to have it as analog as possible. i get it that isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it goes to show that cars like the 86 & supra shouldn't be developed by committee..

I don't understand the desire for rev-matching at all, especially in a car like the FRS. I was driving one of my 5-spd cars a few days ago and blipped the throttle to downshift into a turn and thought, "why would anyone want the car to do that on it's own?" My right foot would be very confused and bored if my car tried doing that itself. As long as it can be turned off though, fine. Totally not what the FRS stands for though.

 

[DevonK]

Seems obvious why rev matching is becoming increasingly popular - you get the fun of manually shifting without having to bother with the finicky aspects of heel-toe which if they go wrong can create extra wear on your clutch and driveline, and, if you are near the adhesion limit when cornering, may cause you to abruptly lose rear traction. Auto rev-matching also makes the daily rush hour grind in urban areas less tiring.

Plus on many cars the pedal placements mean you have to be really hard on the brakes with the pedal well depressed to do a comfortable heel-toe - but braking this hard isn't very smart in street driving. Another recent pedal placement issue impeding heel-toe has resulted from a move to more widely separate the brake and gas pedals to reduce the chance of the driver mashing the wrong pedal - a response to the "accidental acceleration" fiasco of several years ago.

And I suspect a lot of folks either don't want to risk damaging their cars learning heel-toe, don't want to invest the time and effort, or simply don't have the requisite coordination.

If auto rev-match is not what the FRS "stands for" - then why does Toyota offer an auto trans option for the car lol? So much for purity of purpose. Even a niche car like this has to make some accommodation to marketing realities.

 

[Craigy]

I hope it's not true. But I wouldn't doubt that it is.

It comes down to demographics, and once the rumors started saying the words "Cayman" and "Porsche"... I got the feeling that they weren't aiming for the poor millennials who are itching for this car. They are aiming for the middle-aged white guys who will drop $85k on a Cayman S with approximately the same HP as what Forbes is quoting for the Supra.

I can see why they would aim for that market, as it has high profit margins and lots of options for people to waste money on. However, there is a big reason why they wouldn't, and that is because the market in that price range is chilling out a lot and people that can afford an $85k lease, could also stretch to a $125k lease and that's when it needs to make big power and make outrageous claims of 0-60 and top speed; think Z06, Viper, NSX, GT-R, etc. Porsche has been hinting that the days of the Cayman may be numbered, as people find little reason to buy it over a slightly more expensive 911 after options are considered. You just don't see many high volume success stories in the $50k-$85k price category — the Corvette is really the only one I can think of that has volume at such a high base price... Maybe also the M4?

The bigger thing IMO is that once you're in that $50k-$60k price range, looking at a car that's trying to compete head-to-head with a Porsche Cayman, for literally the same money you just go and buy the Porsche. Not its economy brand competitor. I know the Supra nameplate carries some panache among car guys, but are you really going to choose the Toyota when for the exact same money you could be rolling up to the car meet/your job/your girlfriend's house in a Porsche? Same thing with BMW M offerings.

Usually we have to make this comparison used vs new, or justify spending extra money, or find excuses why the bigger brand isn't as good a performer, etc. But this is new vs new, same or better performance.

And then your point also stands. At this price point, it's going to be low volume even if it's successful.

Also FWIW it's not just white guys. Lots of young-ish indians, asians in that Cayman, M3/ M4 category.

 

[HKz]

Seems obvious why rev matching is becoming increasingly popular - you get the fun of manually shifting without having to bother with the finicky aspects of heel-toe which if they go wrong can create extra wear on your clutch and driveline, and, if you are near the adhesion limit when cornering, may cause you to abruptly lose rear traction. Auto rev-matching also makes the daily rush hour grind in urban areas less tiring.

Plus on many cars the pedal placements mean you have to be really hard on the brakes with the pedal well depressed to do a comfortable heel-toe - but braking this hard isn't very smart in street driving. Another recent pedal placement issue impeding heel-toe has resulted from a move to more widely separate the brake and gas pedals to reduce the chance of the driver mashing the wrong pedal - a response to the "accidental acceleration" fiasco of several years ago.

And I suspect a lot of folks either don't want to risk damaging their cars learning heel-toe, don't want to invest the time and effort, or simply don't have the requisite coordination.

If auto rev-match is not what the FRS "stands for" - then why does Toyota offer an auto trans option for the car lol? So much for purity of purpose. Even a niche car like this has to make some accommodation to marketing realities.

poor argument...they at least give people the choice of having a true analog experience. plus, heel and toe is not difficult at all, it is part of the normal repertoire of stick driving techniques...i suspect people who can't heel and toe are probably not the best manual drivers to begin with..if you can learn to accelerate hard and row through the gears smoothly, you can learn to heel and toe.

 

[A70TTR]

I don't think the 86/BRZ was optioned incorrectly at all for that price and segment, but I do feel they are underpowered and that the boxer platform is very mediocre for a multitude of reasons.

The example I've used several times over the years for what the car should have been is the Nissan Silvia... same segment, similar options, and was available I4 turbo or N/A, with the turbo models ranging from mid to high 20k range. Same segment as the original h achi-roku? No, but neither is the new car. The FWD Corolla is the same segment that the RWD Corolla was when new; a shitbox economy car.

From 99-'02, you could buy a Silvia Spec-R for the equivalent of $28k that had 250hp. The S13 had 205hp in 1991-1992, and the S14 had 220hp in 1994-1998. All of them stayed right around the $25-28k mark too (that's with inflation added).


Easy fix though, buy a turbo kit, or be a god amongst men and swap in a BEAMS 3S turbo

 

[DevonK]

poor argument...they at least give people the choice of having a true analog experience. plus, heel and toe is not difficult at all, it is part of the normal repertoire of stick driving techniques...i suspect people who can't heel and toe are probably not the best manual drivers to begin with..if you can learn to accelerate hard and row through the gears smoothly, you can learn to heel and toe.

The usual predictable elitist argument here, mixed with not-so-humblebrag. Fact: even some full-time car journalists find heel-toe too fussy and tricky, and love the auto-revmatching. For those who want to heel-toe all the time, go for it! Just don't impose your own wishes on everybody else. As long as it can be toggled, like Honda does it on the CTR, everybody's happy. Everybody that is but those whose feelings are going to be hurt because now nobody will be able to know for certain that they really are heel-toe masters lol.

 

[HKz]

The usual predictable elitist argument here, mixed with not-so-humblebrag. Fact: even some full-time car journalists find heel-toe too fussy and tricky, and love the auto-revmatching. For those who want to heel-toe all the time, go for it! Just don't impose your own wishes on everybody else. As long as it can be toggled, like Honda does it on the CTR, everybody's happy. Everybody that is but those whose feelings are going to be hurt because now nobody will be able to know for certain that they really are heel-toe masters lol.

elitist? lol...we don't need to dumb down things because some folks can't get it down right away, that is a very slippery slope that we are experiencing in the auto industry. there are other cars that fill what you are looking for, the 86 doesn't need to pander to the same crowd. i get it doesn't appeal to more people, but like i said, niche cars shouldn't be developed by committee, there should be experiences that really only specific enthusiasts appreciate.

I don't think the 86/BRZ was optioned incorrectly at all for that price and segment, but I do feel they are underpowered and that the boxer platform is very mediocre for a multitude of reasons.

The example I've used several times over the years for what the car should have been is the Nissan Silvia... same segment, similar options, and was available I4 turbo or N/A, with the turbo models ranging from mid to high 20k range. Same segment as the original h achi-roku? No, but neither is the new car. The FWD Corolla is the same segment that the RWD Corolla was when new; a shitbox economy car.

From 99-'02, you could buy a Silvia Spec-R for the equivalent of $28k that had 250hp. The S13 had 205hp in 1991-1992, and the S14 had 220hp in 1994-1998. All of them stayed right around the $25-28k mark too (that's with inflation added).


Easy fix though, buy a turbo kit, or be a god amongst men and swap in a BEAMS 3S turbo

I thought Spec R's original MSRP was around $25 K? Wouldn't that make it equivalent to $35 K now? People are too hard on the 86 ^^

Sponsored