Most revealing 2020 Supra prototype spy pics yet, Spotted 3/19/18!

[Jdmuscle]

guess none of us are worthy to walk among the earth with you

Sorry man.. didn’t mean to hurt your feelings. I see you have one of those cars. They are amazing.

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[SupraFiend]

The BRZ was so totally un Subaru, the company literally had to change their official company motto\tag line so they could. Before the BRZ, it was "The Beauty of All Wheel Drive" lol

The BRZ is the best damn Toyota, Subaru ever built.

 

[SupraFiend]

Yes, that’s what I meant, it’s not really breaking news. I knew it since a long time and for me personally it’s a great deal for Toyota, cause this inline-six is an extremely good one.

But as you can see reading turboflgrl’s post a few of those hardcore-Toyota-fanboys still hoped for a wonder.

Don’t worry about the BMW engine. You won’t get some shit, you will get a masterpiece of German engineering. BMW means “BayerischeMotorenWerke” - “BavarianEnginePlant”. This is what they do since a long long time, longer than Toyota does.

Barely. You kinda sound like a hardcore BMW fanboy who doesn't know his history.

Just like BMW, Toyota started out in a different industry. BMW started making aircraft engines in 1917. Toyota started making industrial looms in 1924.

The first car made entirely by BMW was in 1932. The first car made by Toyota entirely was in 1935.

I think most would agree the first real sports car BMW ever made was the 507 roadster in 1956. A project brought to BMW by an American.
Without a doubt, the first sports car Toyota ever built was the Sports 800, in 1962. The 1965 2000GT, brought to Toyota by Yamaha (and the grand father of the Supra), was a pretty similar project to the 507, but it was more of a serious exotic for the time, much like the M1 that came in 78. Both the 2000GT and 507 were very expensive and very few built, and they're all worth a fortune today.

BMW's first actual performance division, M obviously, was also established in 1978 with the introduction of the M1. TRD was Toyota's racing and performance division, established in 1976.

We'll see how the B58 stacks up over time, seeing as the oldest one sold is only 3 years old. Masterpiece will be a bit of a stretch if they have many of the common failures modern BMWs are known for by those who actually have to repair them (non stop CEL codes, VANOS system, water pump and rod bearing failures, etc). We'll see if this motor can come anywhere near the reputation the bullet proof 2jzgte has, which debuted back in 1993 btw. The b58\s58 will be the first turbo inline 6 BMW has made that even has a chance of matching that motor's legacy, power potential, tunability and durability (22 years later).

 

[Guff]

I see.. hence no AWD and Turbo? Fun aspects of a Subaru since Toyota designed it all.. makes sense.

They make that car, it's called the WRX

 

[Modal170]

They make that car, it's called the WRX

Oh the car that is a shadow of its former self and Subaru won't do anything to innovate it?

 

[Mike Myers]

Thank you for that lesson in history @SupraFiend . I’m sure you are right with that historical facts.

And yes, I do like BMW, still driving one. It’s my second one. In the past I owned two Toyotas. No sports cars, no Supra. I liked them too. But since I’m driving BMW, I know another level of what “driving a car” means. It is something completely different.

So you can count on as much historical facts as you want, this new Supra is indeed a BMW and I’m still sure, that won’t be the worst case that could have been happened.
And because I don’t like Roadsters that much, I am so happy, that there will be a BMW Coupé with a Toyota badge on it.

Please don’t misunderstand me: I really do respect the reputations on all those earlier Supras. I like them too. But most (I would say all) of all the cars Toyota is offering today have absolutely nothing to do with most (not all) BMWs you can buy today.

 

[HKz]

Sorry man.. didn’t mean to hurt your feelings. I see you have one of those cars. They are amazing.

 

[PerformanceSound]

Is anyone from Toyota (that actually has a voice in anything) even on these forums?

We are in an era where marketing graduates from Big Ten universities who have ZERO clue or experience about legendary brands and cars, are put into "Chief" positions within the auto industry, and then things like a Toyobaru's and BMWoyota's are created. These people have no idea what a Supra represents in the auto industry, they have no idea why people lust over the MKIV's, AE86, STI's, etc... They get educated in marketing a brand....that's it! Sex sells! That's it....just like what BMW and Mercedes did. They forgot what engineering was all about, and went for the looks. Back in the 70's and 80's, Mercedes and BMW were cars that only a few could buy and many wanted....now, they are cars that many can buy and few really want. Aint' that a b**ch!

We need car people, auto enthusiasts running performance divisions within car companies, not marketing & finance people. Jay Leno said it best when he described some of the best cars nowadays as products of enthusiasts and engineers leading projects and not "bean counters" and lawyers. I wonder how many of the marketing and finance folks know what 2JZ actually means?

 

[Guff]

Is anyone from Toyota (that actually has a voice in anything) even on these forums?

We are in an era where marketing graduates from Big Ten universities who have ZERO clue or experience about legendary brands and cars, are put into "Chief" positions within the auto industry, and then things like a Toyobaru's and BMWoyota's are created. These people have no idea what a Supra represents in the auto industry, they have no idea why people lust over the MKIV's, AE86, STI's, etc... They get educated in marketing a brand....that's it! Sex sells! That's it....just like what BMW and Mercedes did. They forgot what engineering was all about, and went for the looks. Back in the 70's and 80's, Mercedes and BMW were cars that only a few could buy and many wanted....now, they are cars that many can buy and few really want. Aint' that a b**ch!

We need car people, auto enthusiasts running performance divisions within car companies, not marketing & finance people. Jay Leno said it best when he described some of the best cars nowadays as products of enthusiasts and engineers leading projects and not "bean counters" and lawyers. I wonder how many of the marketing and finance folks know what 2JZ actually means?

While I def agree with your main point, luckily there are plenty of Toyota people on these forums and they live and breathe cars just like we do. They're def seeing the comments and complaints, so being vocal is good!

 

[Spilner]

I see.. hence no AWD and Turbo? Fun aspects of a Subaru since Toyota designed it all.. makes sense.

The 86 has never been AWD, only the Fujiwara Zone can give you that feeling

 

[PerformanceSound]

While I def agree with your main point, luckily there are plenty of Toyota people on these forums and they live and breathe cars just like we do. They're def seeing the comments and complaints, so being vocal is good!

Guff, I hope so, I really hope they are taking our comments and complaints into consideration. I know we all complain about BMW’s involvement and how Toyota’s flagship halo sportscar isn’t designed and manufactured by Toyota....but honestly, my biggest gripe about the MKV Supra (at least based on what is floating on the internet) is that a BMW’s drivetrain will power a Supra....not just any Toyota....but a Supra. I gotta be honest, it stings a bit.

Now, let’s say Toyota (in collaboration with BMW) builds a 2JZ successor, because BMW has inline six tooling, forging, casting, etc... The motor would be built in a BMW plant, but realistically is developed by Toyota to be a “different” inline six than a Z4. Something like that, I can work with. How likely is that to happen though? Toyota if you are listening, I WILL NOT BUY A BMW ENGINE WITH A TOYOTA BADGE! I WILL BUY A TOYOTA DEVELOPED ENGINE BUILT BY BMW!

 

[solidsamir]

Guff, I hope so, I really hope they are taking our comments and complaints into consideration. I know we all complain about BMW’s involvement and how Toyota’s flagship halo sportscar isn’t designed and manufactured by Toyota....but honestly, my biggest gripe about the MKV Supra (at least based on what is floating on the internet) is that a BMW’s drivetrain will power a Supra....not just any Toyota....but a Supra. I gotta be honest, it stings a bit.

Now, let’s say Toyota (in collaboration with BMW) builds a 2JZ successor, because BMW has inline six tooling, forging, casting, etc... The motor would built in a BMW plant, but realistically is developed by Toyota to be a “different” inline six than a Z4. Something like that, I can work with. How likely is that to happen though? Toyota if you are listening, I WILL NOT BUY A BMW ENGINE WITH A TOYOTA BADGE! I WILL BUY A TOYOTA DEVELOPED ENGINE BUILT BY BMW!

To be honest, I don't know how Toyota would take that kind of request into consideration this late into the game. The car is expected to be released next year...if you're not going to buy this car because BMW has its fingerprints on the engine then you aren't going to buy this car.

This excessive fanboyism is more whining than it is appealing.

 

[PerformanceSound]

This excessive fanboyism is more whining than it is appealing.

Treat it as you will, but im not a fanboy....I just appreciate a product that stays true to it’s roots whether it be a car, a television, a computer, or whatever. Go ask all the machine shops what they think of the Chinese-made Japanese brand Mitutoyo tools then come back and call me a fanboy. Nothing against China, but Japanese products get their reputation because of home grown engineering and development. Again, I know why Toyota is doing this, but to Guff’s point, if there are Toyota people on these forums and actually listening....fanboys or not....the Supra will not be successful with a straight-up BMW drivetrain.

 

[Lexusisf]

Very early to assume it will have an all BMW drivetrain and predict it will be not successful...

 

[solidsamir]

Treat it as you will, but im not a fanboy....I just appreciate a product that stays true to it’s roots whether it be a car, a television, a computer, or whatever. Go ask all the machine shops what they think of the Chinese-made Japanese brand Mitutoyo tools then come back and call me a fanboy. Nothing against China, but Japanese products get their reputation because of home grown engineering and development. Again, I know why Toyota is doing this, but to Guff’s point, if there are Toyota people on these forums and actually listening....fanboys or not....the Supra will not be successful with a straight-up BMW drivetrain.

You're really comparing apples to oranges. Chinese made products are inferior to Japanese because they haven't been making the products long enough. Even japanese products started off as poor quality. Early japanese cars in America had the same reputation that Kia and Hyundai had when they first started. It takes time to develop quality control. Besides this is Germany we are talking about. Apples to Oranges.

Now on the subject of Germany. They know how to make a good engine. However, their philosophy and toyota's philosophy are indeed different. BMW is a luxury company and tends to overengineer cars. They build their cars for people who lease them (thats why maintenance is free as long as you have warranty). So ya, their products tend to not be reliable 10 years down the line because they don't make it that way. Toyota on the other hand has a reputation of reliability and therefore their products have better quality control.

In fact, Tada-san had this to say:

"Of course, first and foremost we were adamant that this will be a very “pure” sports car. Could we accomplish this with BMW? Also, we intended this car to be sold through Toyota dealerships globally, and was this achievable at the level of quality that dealers and customers have come to expect from Toyota?

I can count a whole list of such concerns and discussions we had initially, but as of this time, we’ve come to a very good relationship with BMW, and we as engineers enjoy building the final stages leading to production stage."

Clearly they addressed the issue of reliability, and clearly that issue was resolved. BMW and Toyota aren't stupid...they know how to fix reliability issues. BMW charges an arm and a leg to repair their cars so it's probably profitable for them to have certain parts fail at certain times. Is that a little sleazy? yeah, but is that easily fixed? yep.

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