Muscle car sales are fading away…

[XtremeMaC]

US electrical infrastructure desperately needs major overhaul to support superchargers as well as allocating space to put them...
Prices will increase, night time cheaper rates will change... Cars will supposedly feed the grid when done charging.....
Good thing is no transportation cost, bad less jobs...
We saw what a crises did to people. Hoarded gasoline in grocery bags..
Upon power outages, there'll either be many diesel/etc. generators or large backup batteries like Tesla Solar thingy, perhaps even car battery like stuff you can go buy at Walmart to charge at home besides actual battery swap that's yet to come... Swapping individual battery packs yourself on the vehicle, I don't think anyone's doing that just yet..
As much as I believe in hydrogen, even production and shipment is cumbersome and unfortunately inefficient combined with ICE. EV is different story... Mirai is doing well I believe.
ICE combo sustainable only on large vehicles like busses, etc.. one off GR Yaris has long ways to go

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[Drnick]

In this country (USA) we’re speed limits
Are limited, u can’t use a car that will do 150mph+, so it’s somewhat pointless
In owning one…..if u wanna go fast,
Buy a $15+K motorcycle, they all go faster, and obviously, much cheaper!

 

[mmspider]

I test drove a model 3 performance last year. Once you get past the acceleration you are left with a dull experience. Electric cars are only fun when you are hammering the gas. Where ICE performance cars are fun when you start them up or shift gears. Even sitting at idle listening to the exhaust can be engaging. I was sitting in my friends McLaren this past weekend and could feel the vibrations of the engine in my sit at idle. Its super frustrating how many people get caught up with just looking at performance specs to judge a car by. Hopefully in time car companies can make electric cars more engaging with gears and more motor sound.

 

[GMsuperfan]

+1

Camaro, Mustang, and Challenger all got too big and too expensive and in Camaro's case, too ugly. The universe of buyers willing and able to pay upwards of $85K for the likes of GT500, Challenger Redeye, and ZL1 wasn't exactly huge and those platforms don't exactly translate if you try to put a wheezy V6 in them... Lots of missteps along the way by Ford, GM, and Stellantis. It didn't need to be this way... Toyota and Nissan have both shown that there is a way to make a profitable, quick sports car that doesn't cost $90K. Even in an EV world, I think there is room for an American muscle car, but it can't be a 4200 pound car with a giant supercharged V8 that costs $75K...

I think a lot of what you guys say is true and it's very clear by the roadmaps for all of the big vehicle manufacturers, EV's will be all you'll likely be able to buy in 25 years, like it or not. I've been keeping a close eye on the collector car market as well and if some of the points that were previously made about the boomers all dying off and a big drop-off in demand, i'm not sure why the latest Mecum and other auction companies are seeing record profits at their events. Anyway, we are definitely living in the era of an inflection point in the automotive industry and at a minimum, it will be something we can look back on as a significant change in the world during our time on the planet. . Trying to be optimistic....lol

 

[trev_rs]

Electrical demand can barely keep up in the summer with A/C units turned on.

 

[trev_rs]

I've been keeping a close eye on the collector car market as well and if some of the points that were previously made about the boomers all dying off and a big drop-off in demand, i'm not sure

This is the nature of anything collectible. It's a cycle. If it was something you dreamed about as a kid, it becomes very valuable when those kids are in their 40s+ and start having disposable income to buy the things they couldn't afford when they were young.

It will always go up, and then crash back down.

I never thought 80s cars would ever increase in value, and look at where some of even those slugs are selling for now.

Show an 80s car to your kid today and they'd laugh. They'll have no desire to own one a decade or two from now. Guaranteed to crash some day.

 

[LinkMK5]

From where I sit, I don't see why EV's and ICE can't coexist. Actually, I subscribe to the theory that EV's and hydrogen will save the ICE engine like the car did the horse, preserving it for the enthusiasts and collectors. If you want to invest in all the things to quarter and provide for a horse you can, and in the future, I think cars with combustion engines will be the Supra's, the Hellcats, the hot rods.

I will say, globally the infrastructure for charging electric cars not call Tesla is horrible. At the Ring it's basically level one slow chargers and two Supercharger stations. Here in the PNW once you get a bit out of the major metro zones into the Cascades or Olympics, you are SOL if you're low on battery. As a person of color with a family of color, as well, there's something comforting about being able to splash and dash if you're in a particularly parochial part of the state. A similar level of get the hell out of dodge charge for an EV takes about 30 minutes, more than enough time for the locals to show up.

There has been enough times in my life where I was somewhere and got the tingle on the back of my neck to get the hell out and sitting at a charger waiting for charge is not where I want to be when that feeling hits.

 

[romanLegion9574]

They surely could have handled things better, but I think primary reason is like Escapist mentioned, performance cars are dying. Because, surely gas is more expensive, but when did heavy & gas guzzler but fast cars ever stopped general masses from buying these? Are zoomers somehow more environmentally conscience and into agility? Big 3 put same engines into trucks and are selling.. Wish we had data to back claims..

Sales are going down but only moving the EV needle by few percent.. So, it's not EV that's stealing customers, massively at least..

People on the forums are talking mostly about Stinger, Z, Supra, Porsche. Common theme is non of them are American.. I feel bad for C8. Riddled/ruined with so many shutdowns.

From GoodCarBadCar.net

I'm surprised the Supra is rarer than a 911.

 

[KahnBB6]

I'm a Millennial and I love coupes and, yes, traditional muscle cars... though for me that appeal expands far beyond just classic 1960's-1980's Ford, GM and Chrysler/Dodge muscle car vehicles and their modern model versions. There are few 70's-present special Japanese cars I don't have at least some or a lot of liking for and the same goes for special European models that stand out as classics.

My first car was a 60's V8 Ford and I'd still buy a muscle car chassis built around that time. Although I could care less about its "originality" or "pedigree" as pertains to an over-valued garage queen that only gets taken out to car shows. I've had the carbureted V8 experience before. At this point I'd put whatever kind of modern driveline I want to into a classic car because the look and character it has appeal to me most more than what specifically is under the hood.

All of this appeal, for me, extends into brand new offerings as well... if they deliver. And regardless of whether the powertrain is gasoline NA, gasoline turbo or fully electric I do expect from manufacturers a vehicle shape and visual style that I actually feel is worth spending the money on as well as a thorough execution of some kind of passionate driver-centric driver's car.

At the end of the day the muscle car models that are produced right now and that have already been on the market are VERY available for anyone to get their hands on if they want one for a very long time.

But far more than anything that is happening with BEV, hydrogen FCV or other electric vehicle offerings I blame the plague that is the popularity of ugly as hell crossovers and 95% of the not-hardcore-offroader SUVs out there for muscle cars, coupes, convertibles, fun two-seaters and other uniquely identifiable smaller enthusiast cars dropping in sales dramatically. I hate crossovers and city/non-offroad SUVs so much...

With still as small a slice of the new sales car market that EVs occupy it's not those which are causing the downturn in sales of the few American muscle cars still on the market.

It COULD be the generally better performance of most average cars out there that have been eating into their sales... or it also could be a couple of generations of people with generally far less disposable income making such purchases less justifiable... or it could be that the average MSRP for a brand new 2022 model muscle car that actually has the better engine and other performance options is far higher than it ever was for a muscle car sold between the 1960's-1990's even when the prices in past eras are adjusted for inflation... or it could be that the appeal of the loudness and in your face brashness of traditional muscle car coupes are not as in fashion as it once was...


But regardless it would be a very stupid future to not have those iconic performance coupe vehicle shapes available to buy in years to come... outside the extreme high collector end or in whatever the supercar/hypercar market offerings are in coming years.

If we're doing a combination of battery and hydrogen fuel cell EVs going forward and maybe even some hydrogen internal combustion models then I STILL expect style and bold and passionate identity from each individual model on offer.

0-60 launches in an EV become a party trick before long and then all that is left, as one poster above stated, is the vehicle itself and how it feels to the driver, how it handles and feels as a CAR and what it is overall as a performance driver's machine.

A Tesla 3 has nowhere near the same style, identity and presence as a Mustang coupe, a Camaro, a Challenger, a Charger sedan or its 1960's big coupe predecessor, a Corvette, pretty much any Ferrari, the Toyota Supra MKIII through MKIV through MKV, the RX-7 FC and FD, etc. etc. etc.

.....

Battery technology R&D is moving along slowly and it will eventually not be the case that battery packs are so heavy, physically large and focused on lithium-ion as they are today but right now there is no significantly lighter, safer, an physically smaller battery cell technology ready for production. Battery technology will take several years to leapfrog what we have right now.

As for the issues with a charging infrastructure buildout... yeah, that's currently an issue. And it's not even a discussion in rural areas yet. That in and of itself is a whole other challenge that will take time to get right. And it can't happen fast enough if new cars are to be EV-only by 2035.

Timeless and cool vehicle styles and shapes that appeal to car people shouldn't die off, including but certainly not in any way limited to iconic muscle car shapes and the appeal of the driver being in as much control as possible of a somewhat raw and powerful machine.

 

[PerformanceSound]

Electric is not a sustainable means of personal transportation. It’s perfect for UPS, FedEx, USPS, etc. Good for those who live in a city as well but not much more. The future of fuel was, is, and always will be hydrogen. Been saying it to whoever will listen for over a decade now. That’s why I’m proud to support a car manufacturer who is dedicating as much R&D into hydrogen as Toyota. JCB has shown we can power an ICE with hydrogen as well so no need for a fuel cell like before.

Ive been preaching the same thing….I truly believe (as does Toyota and many highly engineering-focused companies) that Hydrogen will be the future. However, gasoline will take a long, long, looooong time to be obsolete. The EV infrastructure isn’t anywhere near where it should be to kick off a EV-only campaign. Btw, the big political push to get American automakers to go full EV is to reset the game. Unfortunately, American car companies got left behind while imports continued to dominate (particularly the Japanese car makers). This, I believe, is truly the reason US lawmakers want to push for no ICE car sales in the future. It’s why Ford and GM are trying to get a head start. If Toyota engineers say EV’s are not a viable solution, then I believe them over what our government says.

 

[Elektro]

I love my EV but trying to proselytize some automotive fuel vs. another is really wierd. Every single car on that list is gasoline which is by far the most popular fuel for cars in this country. So I don't see how fuel type is relevant to this discussion anyways.

The modern enthusiast market is into off road and overlanding type vehicles. Blame them, and not EVs, for the demise of the sportscar. Any maker could build a sports EV any time they wanted. They can't sell the gas ones in any numbers so a niche on a niche isn't going to work.

More concerning is all of the EVs introduced at the CES a couple weeks ago GM, Hyundai, Sony, Ford, etc... look exactly the same. A slightly sloped back glass, too-tall cuv proportions, some sort of neon light across the front. All poorly copying each other.

Except the Benz EQXX which is a brilliant concept but lets be real, is a multimillion dollar prototype. It's efficient compared to those tall 4500+ lbs people movers but doing the same driving on a prius would also get you 6 mi/kwh until the battery runs out.

But, look at the gas cars that actually sell... they are the same. Regular people want CUVs and enthusiasts want Wrangler, Bronco, or a pickup with a 4x4 and mud tires that never leave the interstate. It's what people want and who can fault car makers for building what sells.

 

[RenRed2]

I love my EV but trying to proselytize some automotive fuel vs. another is really wierd. Every single car on that list is gasoline which is by far the most popular fuel for cars in this country. So I don't see how fuel type is relevant to this discussion anyways.

The modern enthusiast market is into off road and overlanding type vehicles. Blame them, and not EVs, for the demise of the sportscar. Any maker could build a sports EV any time they wanted. They can't sell the gas ones in any numbers so a niche on a niche isn't going to work.

More concerning is all of the EVs introduced at the CES a couple weeks ago GM, Hyundai, Sony, Ford, etc... look exactly the same. A slightly sloped back glass, too-tall cuv proportions, some sort of neon light across the front. All poorly copying each other.

Except the Benz EQXX which is a brilliant concept but lets be real, is a multimillion dollar prototype. It's efficient compared to those tall 4500+ lbs people movers but doing the same driving on a prius would also get you 6 mi/kwh until the battery runs out.

But, look at the gas cars that actually sell... they are the same. Regular people want CUVs and enthusiasts want Wrangler, Bronco, or a pickup with a 4x4 and mud tires that never leave the interstate. It's what people want and who can fault car makers for building what sells.

Enthusiasts going to the mall LOL. 1% might see some dirt on a road near a mall being fixed. They buy the picture lifestyle in the brochure and rarely live it. Thats reality. The office worker dreaming of a non office life. His or her 'Bronco' at least lets them think they are lol

Marketing.

I like sportscars and buy them. We are enthusiasts as well. Are we large in number not as much. To say enthusiasts are off road ignores a few of us.............to say the least. Fk SUV and Truck culture. Wow they drive large vehicles with 1 brat and loaf of bread. Enthusiasts LOL???????

 

[mmspider]

I am not surprised

More concerning is all of the EVs introduced at the CES a couple weeks ago GM, Hyundai, Sony, Ford, etc... look exactly the same. A slightly sloped back glass, too-tall cuv proportions, some sort of neon light across the front. All poorly copying each other.

For some time now I have been thinking why this is happening. My only guess is that car companies now must design a vehicle with batteries in the floor. The proportions of electric cars look worse in my opinion.

With a ICE car you can mount the engine front, mid or rear.

I do have hope in time we will get better designs, specially from the Germans. It seems like Porsche and Audi will have cool designs for people who care.

 

[RenRed2]

I am not surprised


For some time now I have been thinking why this is happening. My only guess is that car companies now must design a vehicle with batteries in the floor. The proportions of electric cars look worse in my opinion.

With a ICE car you can mount the engine front, mid or rear.

I do have hope in time we will get better designs, specially from the Germans. It seems like Porsche and Audi will have cool designs for people who care.

The Taycan is a nice looking E-machine. For a price of course lol. If on looks and performance/value and quality- thats what I would pick. Not ever a Tesla. Quality and Tesla are never in the same sentence unless you are expressing how bad it is lol

 

[XtremeMaC]

If Toyota engineers say EV’s are not a viable solution, then I believe them over what our government says.

It's also because of strict emissions. Toyota is among those who opposed the legislations. They still believe in ICE and spend benjis on R&D. The debate of what contributes most to CO2, tailpipe vs everything else continues.
It's always a gamble when it comes to predictions like this. Some will come out winners others left in regret. I think betting all your eggs in one basket approach is risky thus I can't fathom why big 3 and others pledge nothing but to have full lineup of "zero" emission in few years.
If the trend doesn't catch on, if there's a catastrophe to push people away from EV, it's billions down the drain... Like styling as discussed above ..
Having said that, instantaneous power from e-motors is undeniable. Range anxiety is fading but grid needs to catch on...
Car sharing and fading car ownership was highly advertised. With complexity and pandemic I think that went away pretty fast. (*Looks for credible source to back it up. Shutdowns affected, etc. ).
Lastly, we already know the most aerodynamically efficient design for lowest drag, but we still have boxy cars like G-Wagon. With e-motors capable of high torque, battery weight is lets say not that crucial once range anxiety completely disappears. Some sweet spot in-between will surely allow companies to design exteriors with more freedom.

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