New rumors from C&D: 2020 Supra to get BMW inline six engine / B58 & S58 chat

[greaseman]

after doing about two minutes of research i may be wrong. i heard they were very reliable from some source but it appears that this is not the case.

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[HKz]

I've had a 'brand new' 86 for 6 months, it spent 4 months at Toyota fixing an issue with the engine. I'll hardly call it reliable. I sold it in my 6th month of ownership.

hope you understand statistics because your case means nothing otherwise just how many 86/BRZ do you think they have sold worldwide..?..the 86 twins have been a relatively reliable platform...if you want to go on a personal level, I've had 2 86s for a total of 100 K miles with no mechanical issues.

FYI in the US market, Consumer Reports rated the FRS/BRZ as the 2nd most reliable car in 2017, ahead of every chassis with a 2GR!.. (https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability/10-most-reliable-cars/). Fact is nearly every single engine out there is very complex these days but in this hybridized & forced induction age, the 86's powerplant is one of the simpler ones out there.

As for the OP's question, all Toyota fans are wondering the exact same thing. If the rumors regarding whether Toyota will have their hand in developing the top end turn out to be true then I think we'll be fine as most folks people seem to appreciate their development of the FA20.

 

[Villa Jonny]

Hold up..

 

[zedsix]

hope you understand statistics because your case means nothing otherwise just how many 86/BRZ do you think they have sold worldwide..?..the 86 twins have been a relatively reliable platform...if you want to go on a personal level, I've had 2 86s for a total of 100 K miles with no mechanical issues.

FYI in the US market, Consumer Reports rated the FRS/BRZ as the 2nd most reliable car in 2017, ahead of every chassis with a 2GR!.. (https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability/10-most-reliable-cars/). Fact is nearly every single engine out there is very complex these days but in this hybridized & forced induction age, the 86's powerplant is one of the simpler ones out there.

As for the OP's question, all Toyota fans are wondering the exact same thing. If the rumors regarding whether Toyota will have their in developing the top end turn out to be true then I think we'll be fine as most folks people seem to appreciate their development of the FA20.

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/engine-problems-for-toyota-86-and-subaru-brz-20121010-27cbu

I had the first generation (literally when the car was released) - this is in Australia by the way, literally half the 86's when released had the CEL issue. My care literally lived at Toyota for 4 months while they fixed the issue, I got the car back 3 times and the issue remained.

I sold that car and never looked back, despite the shitty problem with the CEL + rough idle, the car was far too over hyped when released imo, it's a cheap sports car with good weight distribution. The interior -- lets just say I wasn't a fan of, it felt flimsy/weak.

 

[solidsamir]

Regarding the reliability of BMW products,
Tada-san had this to say:

"Of course, first and foremost we were adamant that this will be a very “pure” sports car. Could we accomplish this with BMW? Also, we intended this car to be sold through Toyota dealerships globally, and was this achievable at the level of quality that dealers and customers have come to expect from Toyota?

I can count a whole list of such concerns and discussions we had initially, but as of this time, we’ve come to a very good relationship with BMW, and we as engineers enjoy building the final stages leading to production stage."

from that quote I assume they addressed the issue of reliability to a point where it's no longer a concern for Toyota.

 

[Guff]

I've had a 'brand new' 86 for 6 months, it spent 4 months at Toyota fixing an issue with the engine. I'll hardly call it reliable. I sold it in my 6th month of ownership.

Here's another anecdote, I own both an FRS and BRZ, both 2013s, over 100k miles put on them. Never once had a single issue, both have been run on E85 the majority of their lives and beat to hell and back, with dozens of track days and hundreds of autocrosses.

But my two cars are a drop in the water compared to all the cars that have been sold. If you look at overall statistics, they are very reliable, so anecdotal evidence doesn't help much.

Back to the original point, Toyota is obviously committed to reliability. They are also well aware of BMWs reputation when it comes to reliability. Wouldn't it make sense that some amount of time during the 5-6 years this car has been in development, Toyota decided to spend some engineering dollars on ensuring that this halo car of theirs doesn't completely ruin Toyotas long standing image of reliability?



Oh no, but this car is just a rebadged BMW!

 

[SVHO]

New to this forum. I am worry about the BMW reliability. Have owned a few japanese sports cars (2 S2000, 3 Z/ZX, Miata ND) over the years and mostly were reliable. I have driven many BMW from friends and families; they are fun cars to drive with good handling, but the reliability isn't there.

Who has time to go to dealers to get things fix or repair? When I had my new Tacoma (2012 SR5 DC) with free oil change for 2 years, I didn't even use it once. Unless the Supra comes with a modified top end from Toyota, I won't be interested.

 

[HKz]

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/engine-problems-for-toyota-86-and-subaru-brz-20121010-27cbu

I had the first generation (literally when the car was released) - this is in Australia by the way, literally half the 86's when released had the CEL issue. My care literally lived at Toyota for 4 months while they fixed the issue, I got the car back 3 times and the issue remained.

I sold that car and never looked back, despite the shitty problem with the CEL + rough idle, the car was far too over hyped when released imo, it's a cheap sports car with good weight distribution. The interior -- lets just say I wasn't a fan of, it felt flimsy/weak.

first generation? don't start getting terms mixed up, the twins are still in the same "generation"...and my first 86 was also part of the first year production...do you really think half of Aussie 86's got CEL issues? Lol...again how many 86s have been sold in Australia and the world? Do you think there's a conspiracy where Japan saved a specific batch of 86s just for Australia and they kept all the good ones for themselves and the US? Plus if you admit you got an early production model, don't you think you should logically understand there are some growing pains? Even the very first Lexus LS400 had a recall soon after launch...think you're being pretty unrealistic for a brand new chassis & powerplant.

It was only overhyped for unrealistic people who wanted power or for it to be a Supra replacement..

 

[solidsamir]

New to this forum. I am worry about the BMW reliability. Have owned a few japanese sports cars (2 S2000, 3 Z/ZX, Miata ND) over the years and mostly were reliable. I have driven many BMW from friends and families; they are fun cars to drive with good handling, but the reliability isn't there.

Who has time to go to dealers to get things fix or repair? When I had my new Tacoma (2012 SR5 DC) with free oil change for 2 years, I didn't even use it once. Unless the Supra comes with a modified top end from Toyota, I won't be interested.

Wait what? You didn't change your oil for 2 years?

 

[Modal170]

Here's another anecdote, I own both an FRS and BRZ, both 2013s, over 100k miles put on them. Never once had a single issue, both have been run on E85 the majority of their lives and beat to hell and back, with dozens of track days and hundreds of autocrosses.

But my two cars are a drop in the water compared to all the cars that have been sold. If you look at overall statistics, they are very reliable, so anecdotal evidence doesn't help much.

Back to the original point, Toyota is obviously committed to reliability. They are also well aware of BMWs reputation when it comes to reliability. Wouldn't it make sense that some amount of time during the 5-6 years this car has been in development, Toyota decided to spend some engineering dollars on ensuring that this halo car of theirs doesn't completely ruin Toyotas long standing image of reliability?



Oh no, but this car is just a rebadged BMW!

Let them falsely believe whatever propaganda they want to believe, so when the facts come through, they are forced to counter their own bullshit.

 

[SVHO]

Wait what? You didn't change your oil for 2 years?

Good one. I had an accident at the dealership with another car and from that on I started to do my own oil change.

 

[Nurburgring]

We don´t know yet which engine the Supra will use, and to which extent it has been modified by Toyota. If it happens to be the B58 engine, it has shown to be quite reliable, so should be a good base. A few years of additional testing and development by Toyota will not hurt.
I have zero worries the engine will be reliable, but a bit more concerned on tuneability, latest BMW ECU`s have been proven to be quite hard to crack, and getting around fueling limitations is also a hurdle. Then you have the torque limits of the DCT gearbox.

 

[MA617M]

the ZF8 - if that is what the supra receives - is known for handling bulk power (think BMW M5)... so fingers crossed

 

[boodjohn]

My argument is that a v6 is still on the table, not that they will use a v6. I don't care which is used (Im a former 335i owner) but I think it is ridiculous how journalists jump to all these conclusions for click-bait and people buy into it. A magazine at my local grocery store says Trump is having an affair with Hilary, should I assume it is true as well?

Just caught up on this thread after finals.

There will be a BMW sourced straight 6. However, @justbake may be right. Toyota (or representatives) never confirmed or denied the use of VA35 V6TT. All car manufactures develop engines for many shared applications. An engine design, development, production, and implementation for one or two vehicles does not translate into profits. That is why engines are shared on many platforms. (Camry, tacoma, avalon, Sienna, Highlander, Lexus IS, Lexus GS, Lexus ES, Lexus RC, Lexus RX...etc - all use the same engines but tuned differently) Developing engines require years of R&D that range from hundreds of millions of dollars to billions of dollars. It makes no logical sense to develop a corporate engine and decide not to use it.

In the case of the supra, there may be 3 trim levels of power plant available.

inline 4 (T?) - Most likely from BMW --> Lowest trim engine targeting 225-275 HP
inline 6 TT - Sourced from BMW ---> Mid Range engine targeting 300-370 HP
VA35 TT - Sourced from Toyota ---> GRMN Trim level (Possible sports hybrid) targeting +450 HP
- Hybrid makes more sense for efficiency standards in order to help meet toyota's Corporate MPG goals.


Wouldn't be surprised to see a Toyota variant with their own engine platform. This contract with BMW and toyota is not similar to Subaru's and Toyota's contract where pricing, engine, trims must be similar.

 

[solidsamir]

Just caught up on this thread after finals.

There will be a BMW sourced straight 6. However, @justbake may be right. Toyota (or representatives) never confirmed or denied the use of VA35 V6TT. All car manufactures develop engines for many shared applications. An engine design, development, production, and implementation for one or two vehicles does not translate into profits. That is why engines are shared on many platforms. (Camry, tacoma, avalon, Sienna, Highlander, Lexus IS, Lexus GS, Lexus ES, Lexus RC, Lexus RX...etc - all use the same engines but tuned differently) Developing engines require years of R&D that range from hundreds of millions of dollars to billions of dollars. It makes no logical sense to develop a corporate engine and decide not to use it.

In the case of the supra, there may be 3 trim levels of power plant available.

inline 4 (T?) - Most likely from BMW --> Lowest trim engine targeting 225-275 HP
inline 6 TT - Sourced from BMW ---> Mid Range engine targeting 300-370 HP
VA35 TT - Sourced from Toyota ---> GRMN Trim level (Possible sports hybrid) targeting +450 HP
- Hybrid makes more sense for efficiency standards in order to help meet toyota's Corporate MPG goals.


Wouldn't be surprised to see a Toyota variant with their own engine platform. This contract with BMW and toyota is not similar to Subaru's and Toyota's contract where pricing, engine, trims must be similar.

Nope, not going to happen. An i6 and V6 sit differently in an engine. No way in hell they would do something so ridiculous.

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