News, Updates, and Discussions on next-gen A100 Supra

[jreinlie4]

I'm willing to bet there will be no MKVI or "A100". If Toyota releases another legitimate sports car after the MKV run, it will be all electric and under a fresh name. The Supra name will become a legacy.

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[KahnBB6]

I'm willing to bet there will be no MKVI or "A100". If Toyota releases another legitimate sports car after the MKV run, it will be all electric and under a fresh name. The Supra name will become a legacy.

That possibility concerns me. And to that end why should it fade away as a mere legacy car right after returning? Why get it only so far along with the iconic model again and then.... just give up on it?

That would be a very stupid letdown after waiting such a long time for a MKV.

The MR2 is supposedly getting developed as something definitely not pure gas powered and it isn’t abandoning its heritage and name. And the Celica name has been trademarked again as well.

The Supra name shouldn’t die off again for a willful lack of effort to keep it alive as true to its character as possible in an era of bubblecars and crossovers and a flagship EV Toyota sportscar should retain the character and legacy of a truly awesome car like this one.

Until 2035 a next-gen would be a hybrid gas-electric anyway.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Now that @Supra93 has unearthed that the GR GT3 design has been filed for a patent by Toyota and accepted as of recent, has anyone gotten any updates about either the GR GT3 or the A100 GR Supra? I tried putting two and two together and hypothesized that the GR GT3 race car is set to be racing around 2024 and it will be racing for a year or so before the A90 will end production which is early 2026.

We've basically been able to sus out that the A90 codevelopment was enough for Toyota to prove a business case for them to start having a whole host of enthusiast and sports cars on their own again. And also we've learned that the GR GT3 was a sole Toyota project which adds more fuel to these rumors.

Now is the V35A-FTS the engine of choice? Could Toyota build their inline-six (either from scratch, or buy the rights to the B58 and use it, or stroke it)? We know it will be hybridized to some degree.

I thought that since the A90 is more or less halfway through its life cycle and it has been a year since we discussed this we could revive the discussion in case anyone may have learnt anything more. @A70TTR anything new?

 

[KahnBB6]

^^ At this point in time I still don't think Toyota will be investing in their own inline-six engine family mostly because they no longer make vehicles that use the kind of packaging that it requires and for just one model... they still aren't going to do it. This is one of the major reasons that the MKV with it's inline-six was a co-developed car.

The past rumors of a Toyota & Mazda tie-up for an I-6 vehicle platform caught my interest but unfortunately there turned out to be no substance to those rumors.

I think the only way that Toyota would extend their use of the BMW B58C & B58D engines would be if they plan to do a sixth generation Supra partnership with BMW. This probably isn't in the cards as BMW doesn't seem interested in making another Z4 past the current generation.

BMW and Mercedes-Benz recently invested some more in I-6 engines for the time being alongside electrification efforts because most of the mainstream models in their lineups that are RWD make sense paired with such a long engine. Stellantis has done the same with a new inline-six turbo engine that will see duty in a range of Dodge and Jeep vehicles and probably some other models under the Stellantis umbrella for a few years.

Toyota GR seems quite open to more co-developed sportscar platforms alongside totally in-house efforts like the GR Yaris and GR Corolla but how that co-development strategy will go in the next few years will depend on how their ICE hybrid, full battery-electric, hydrogen fuel cell and hydrogen internal combustion strategies go (we're talking into the 2030-2035 timeframe to see how that will shake out fully).

The all-in-house GR Yaris and GR Corolla were made possible because the AWD drivetrain and engine were able to be shared in more than just one vehicle model. A much milder variant of the AWD system might even make it into more mainstream Toyota products for all we know. The G16E-GTS may be used in more cars than just those two.... or not. But we all know that it's very adaptable into Toyota's TNGA chassis architecture.

For Toyota to do that with their own new I-6 engine they'd need more vehicles than just the Supra to amortize the R&D and production costs in order to justify its creation.

Toyota's V35A-FTS V6 twin turbo would be a great basis for a sports car application for sure. If it can handle duty in their flagship luxury sedan (aside from the V8 hybrid Century) then it can surely be put into a sportscar design.

....

I also would love to know anything regarding what the future of the Supra and other fun to drive Toyotas holds. The GR GT3 concept being a different concept than the similar but not the same looking Lexus sportscar BEV concept gives me hope that it will live on.

As a side note, while Nissan made a new V6 for the R35 GTR this change for the model was lobbied for back when the R34 generation was being planned. Kozo Watanabe, the chief engineer of the Skyline R33 and R34 (including the GT-R editions) wanted a V6 engine for the R34 model range but top brass at Nissan shot down that request at the time and so the RB26 lived almost as long as the 2JZ-GTE.

Point being that the shift to easier to package V6 turbocharged engines was probably going to be inevitable for Toyota/Lexus. And since they have that V35A-FTS in a number of vehicles already means that they easily could go all out with it... assuming it wouldn't be too old by the time a sixth generation Supra were to be planned.

Right now I'm curious to see what else Toyota GR will do with the MKV for the years it remains in production but I do hope they are already considering an approach for a next generation Supra.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

^^ At this point in time I still don't think Toyota will be investing in their own inline-six engine family mostly because they no longer make vehicles that use the kind of packaging that it requires and for just one model... they still aren't going to do it. This is one of the major reasons that the MKV with it's inline-six was a co-developed car.

The past rumors of a Toyota & Mazda tie-up for an I-6 vehicle platform caught my interest but unfortunately there turned out to be no substance to those rumors.

I think the only way that Toyota would extend their use of the BMW B58C & B58D engines would be if they plan to do a sixth generation Supra partnership with BMW. This probably isn't isn't in the cards as BMW doesn't seem interested in making another Z4 past the current generation.

BMW and Mercedes-Benz recently invested some more in I-6 engines for the time being alongside electrification efforts because most of the mainstream models in their lineups that are RWD make sense paired with such a long engine. Stellantis has done the same with a new inline-six turbo engine that will see duty in a range of Dodge and Jeep vehicles and probably some other models under the Stellantis umbrella for a few years.

Toyota GR seems quite open to more co-developed sportscar platforms alongside totally in-house efforts like the GR Yaris and GR Corolla but how that co-development strategy will go in the next few years will depend on how their ICE hybrid, full battery-electric, hydrogen fuel cell and hydrogen internal combustion strategies go (we're talking into the 2030-2035 timeframe to see how that will shake out fully).

The all-in-house GR Yaris and GR Corolla were made possible because the AWD drivetrain and engine were able to be shared in more than just one vehicle model. A much milder variant of the AWD system might even make it into more mainstream Toyota products for all we know. The G16E-GTS may be used in more cars than just those two.... or not. But we all know that it's very adaptable into Toyota's TNGA chassis architecture.

For Toyota to do that with their own new I-6 engine they'd need more vehicles than just the Supra to amortize the R&D and production costs in order to justify its creation.

Toyota's V35A-FTS V6 twin turbo would be a great basis for a sports car application for sure. If it can handle duty in their flagship luxury sedan (aside from the V8 hybrid Century) then it can surely be put into a sportscar design.

....

I also would love to know anything regarding what the future of the Supra and other fun to drive Toyotas holds. The GR GT3 concept being a different concept than the similar but not the same looking Lexus sportscar BEV concept gives me hope that it will live on.

As a side note, while Nissan made a new V6 for the R35 GTR this change for the model was lobbied for back when the R34 generation was being planned. Kozo Watanabe, the chief engineer of the Skyline R33 and R34 (including the GT-R editions) wanted a V6 engine for the R34 model range but top brass at Nissan shot down that request at the time and so the RB26 lived almost as long as the 2JZ-GTE.

Point being that the shift to easier to package V6 turbocharged engines was probably going to be inevitable for Toyota/Lexus. And since they have that V35A-FTS in a number of vehicles already means that they easily could go all out with it... assuming it wouldn't be too old by the time a sixth generation Supra were to be planned.

Right now I'm curious to see what else Toyota GR will do with the MKV for the years it remains in production but I do hope they are already considering an approach for a next generation Supra.

All are really good points. I personally want the inline-six because it would be extremely easy to access and work on. I think the B58 is one of the best six-cylinder engines ever made and I personally hope that they can try cutting some steps in development money by buying the rights to the engine, doing some modifications to it, then build it. It's much easier than reusing a 30 year old 2JZ engine, or if they were to build it on their own.

As good as the V35A-FTS is, I am not excited by it like I am about the B58. I do hope A70 does have clues about it though.

 

[KahnBB6]

All are really good points. I personally want the inline-six because it would be extremely easy to access and work on. I think the B58 is one of the best six-cylinder engines ever made and I personally hope that they can try cutting some steps in development money by buying the rights to the engine, doing some modifications to it, then build it. It's much easier than reusing a 30 year old 2JZ engine, or if they were to build it on their own.

As good as the V35A-FTS is, I am not excited by it like I am about the B58. I do hope A70 does have clues about it though.

I also would love to hear any more clues from A70 if he ever checks the forums now and feels comfortable enough to do so. It's up to him of course.

I agree. The B58C and B58D are excellent designs (and so is the S58). For the reasons I mentioned above (and mind you I have no insider connection, I'm just trying to analyze the situation) I don't think Toyota would continue using the B58 series unless a platform were specifically designed for it that would be shared with more than just the Supra.

This was the case for the Supra MKIII and MKIV and it's also the case for the MKV. So Toyota would need at least one more higher volume model designed around a BMW inline-six for that strategy to have even the most basic business case that management would approve of.

As much as I'd love to see a new I-6 turbo Soarer/SC long nose GT coupe costing far less than the LC500 or an I-6 turbo Chaser/Mark II/Cressida sport sedan I'm not betting on any of those pipe dream classic models coming back. At least not with a BMW I-6 engine.

Further, would BMW even entertain such long term licensing beyond the already long term commitment they have to support the Supra MKV for many years? For Toyota usually they hold to a minimum of 15 years of replacement parts being produced and stocked for all their models. Some parts (usually when shared with more than one model) stay in production longer... it depends. Who knows if that long term parts support timeframe applies for the MKV at minimum or longer.

I hear you regarding the V35A-FTS in its current form which is tuned for luxury sedan and truck/SUV duties. But if the block and heads are good enough or if Yamaha were to have a go at revising that engine I'm sure it's capable of doing much more exciting things than it currently does.

....

As for the 2JZ-GTE engine, it's now a 31 year old engine design. Even with the intake cam VVT-i update it received in 1996 (for Japan only) it wasn't capable of meeting Japanese emissions regulations after model year 2002. For Europe emissions regs killed it after model year 1996 and in the USA by 1998 though that was due to low sales so it might have made it through emissions in the states through 2000 or so had it sold well.

The 2JZ-GTE puts out about 250 kg/m of CO2. That's way over what cars are allowed to output these days. It's a glorious and tough engine and I love mine tremendously but it wouldn't cut it these days.

The biggest advancement the JZ engines ever received was a narrow valve angle (terrible for performance) dual VVT-i cam cylinder head with Toyota's D4-S port and direct fuel injection system for Japan and only in automatic applications. It did deliver better fuel economy and lower emissions but it was not a high performance engine in that configuration. In the 1JZ-FSE (2.5L) it made 197hp and in the 2JZ-FSE (3.0L) it made 217hp. They were the very end of the JZ series and their production ended after the 2007 model year in Japan.

As cool as it would be it to see an updated and revived 2JZ-GTE in a new Supra it would be totally unthinkable today for Toyota to engineer a new cylinder head to mount onto a practically ancient heavy iron engine block for brand new cars.

I doubt any kind of modern technology could help the turbo 2JZ achieve modern emissions and fuel economy targets. In stock form it would be bested by the current Supra's B58D in all performance, fuel economy and emissions metrics.

I regularly get about 15-16 city and 22-23 highway with my stock example (in a 3600lb car). And that's when you *don't* hammer it into 2nd turbo boost all the time. With a 2JZ engine your rate of fuel consumption is directly influenced linearly by the number of RPMs you are spinning the engine up to at any given time. It was designed and released in 1991 when premium high octane gas was barely more than $1.20/gallon (USD).

Not that any of that matters now. It's a fantastic classic performance engine and one of the best ever made but it's never going to be revived with revisions in a new Toyota.

And even if it were to be the same problem as before exists in the need for Toyota to sell a couple of different vehicle models with that engine system in order to spread the costs around.

 

[SD_MK]

BREAKING NEWS: leaks of the new A100 prototype have been released by toyota and out in the public for testing! Looks like toyota has a new collaboration partner!

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

BREAKING NEWS: leaks of the new A100 prototype have been released by toyota and out in the public for testing! Looks like toyota has a new collaboration partner!

y u do dis ;-;

 

[PerformanceSound]

Lexus's variant won't be the same as Toyota's variant. Don't give up just yet on the A100. From what I know, Toyota will not be utilizing the same setup as the Lexus. Base platform yes, drivetrain no. Let's be patient and see what happens.

 

[C-Pike]

Lexus's variant won't be the same as Toyota's variant. Don't give up just yet on the A100. From what I know, Toyota will not be utilizing the same setup as the Lexus. Base platform yes, drivetrain no. Let's be patient and see what happens.

Are we thinking something along the lines of SC400 vs MK4 Supra?

 

[KahnBB6]

Lexus's variant won't be the same as Toyota's variant. Don't give up just yet on the A100. From what I know, Toyota will not be utilizing the same setup as the Lexus. Base platform yes, drivetrain no. Let's be patient and see what happens.

If both brands get to use their own versions of the same core chassis for different cars then that would be an excellent approach.

This was, after all, the way some of the costs were spread around more between the Supra MKIV, Z30 Toyota Soarer and Lexus SC300/400 in the 1990's.

I hope you're right about this because having that shared lineage again between a Supra and a Lexus coupe (which I'd hope would be called the "SC" or "Soarer" again) would be fantastic for both Toyota and Lexus.

Are we thinking something along the lines of SC400 vs MK4 Supra?

If PerformanceSound is proven correct about this then that's exactly what it would be like since the Supra MKIV was developed *from* the Z30 Soarer/SC300/SC400 chassis as a starting point.

The MKIV and 1991-2000 SC/Soarer were all built on the same assembly lines and share a ridiculous number of chassis, suspension and driveline parts and hard points apart from cosmetic styling differences and slightly different wheelbases. The 91-00 SC/Soarer chassis is only roughly 200lbs heavier at the sheetmetal than the MKIV chassis.

I'd love to see that happen again for both brands with a modern RWD coupe platform.

 

[PerformanceSound]

If we are talking about the "TNGA-A" platform, the Lexus variant and Toyota variant will be almost entirely different. Powertrain, drivetrain, interior materials, ride quality, comfort, tech, etc... will be exclusive to each other. I will say, Toyota will have the focus on performance, while Lexus will "get it all." This makes sense as an average buyer, if I am shopping for a Toyota sports car...my main attraction will be performance above all else at an affordable price. Lexus on the other hand will have more of a "if we build it, they will come" mentality. Both variants will have elevated levels of performance, style, dynamics, etc... but I can confidently say that the Lexus will be loaded with unmatched features. Think LFA 2.0.

 

[KahnBB6]

If we are talking about the "TNGA-A" platform, the Lexus variant and Toyota variant will be almost entirely different. Powertrain, drivetrain, interior materials, ride quality, comfort, tech, etc... will be exclusive to each other. I will say, Toyota will have the focus on performance, while Lexus will "get it all." This makes sense as an average buyer, if I am shopping for a Toyota sports car...my main attraction will be performance above all else at an affordable price. Lexus on the other hand will have more of a "if we build it, they will come" mentality. Both variants will have elevated levels of performance, style, dynamics, etc... but I can confidently say that the Lexus will be loaded with unmatched features. Think LFA 2.0.

In that case it sounds like a back-to-Z30-style SC/Soarer style successor is not going to be what the Lexus variant will be if "LFA 2.0" is what they're going for. Ah well... we did get the LC coupe and convertible after all and those are pretty much what an evolved SC400 should be.

I recall some Lexus LFA successor news out of Bestcar a while back claiming that Lexus wanted to still make another flagship but this time a bit more affordable than the original LFA.

Whatever production platform comes from the GR GT3 Concept's R&D would seem to fall in closer to that than another $375k (I think that was it?) vehicle.

 

[PerformanceSound]

In that case it sounds like a back-to-Z30-style SC/Soarer style successor is not going to be what the Lexus variant will be if "LFA 2.0" is what they're going for. Ah well... we did get the LC coupe and convertible after all and those are pretty much what an evolved SC400 should be.

I recall some Lexus LFA successor news out of Bestcar a while back claiming that Lexus wanted to still make another flagship but this time a bit more affordable than the original LFA.

Whatever production platform comes from the GR GT3 Concept's R&D would seem to fall in closer to that than another $375k (I think that was it?) vehicle.

Unfortunately, Toyota’s goal with the next flagship sports car cannot ride on a touring chassis….it’s the best or nothing. The only chassis they can use to accomplish this (without outsourcing) will be from one they share with Lexus (LFA successor). Both brands want to have a solid chassis, but the rest will be unique to each brand. Also, I know for a fact that the next “Supra” will need to have a better chassis than the current….this will be interesting on how they will accomplish that because the MKV is already stiffer than the LFA.

 

[johnny_10196]

Sounds expensive if the A100 is based on a Lexus.

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