Our test drive and more technical details about the new Supra

[Nurburgring]

Integrated exhaust manifold would be a really dumb move if tunability is considered for this car. I really hope the engine is based on B58M30O1 architechture. If it was tested to serious numbers with any decent change of longevity, an integrated manifold won't work.

Interested in why yo think the integrated manifold is so limiting?

The 210hp VW GTI (EA888 Gen3) also has an integrated manifold, and there are several turbo kits to go 500+

Problem?

Solution:

The new Civic Type R engine (K20C1) also has an integrated manifold. There are kits for this engine, unfortunately current limitation is the direct injection setup (they run out of fuel), so you can`t strap a big turbo just yet. But it`s a matter of time.

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[MA617M]

That's cool, I didn't know that.

My concerns are purely from a longevity perspective. The best thing about the 2JZ is you can get a 25 year old engine, strap a snail to it and make 500WHP all day. From an old, unknown engine.

I fear the thermal load of a bigger turbo/higher boost on the aluminium head will result in annealing or distortion over time. It may be fine for 5 years, but will it hold up like the JZ?

The RB engines are a great example. When they were still newish, they were a tuner dream and competitive with the JZ. These days, after time has had their way, most RB engines need some money and love thrown at them before you can make safe, reliable bulk power.

The 7M is another (more extreme) example. Great and strong when newish. Now, they're a money pit and not really worth it.

It might be completely unfounded, but that's my concerns. I guess it's backed by the fact that bmw use the individual ports on their higher output engine and not the integrated manifold.

 

[Nurburgring]

I don`t think the integrated exhaust manifold will be a problem on reliability. But I do get your point, overall, properly built "old school" engines like the 2JZ, Mezger, etc. will be hard to beat on long term reliability when tuned. Modern engines are much more complex, there are simply a lot more points of potential failure.

 

[BRX]

If the MKV and it's engine prove to be a success, swapping out the head with the integrated manifold for the "standard" one would be the 1.5JZ of this generation.

The aftermarket might have some options available as well but it all depends how robust these B58s prove to be under a lot of boost without any internal upgrades.

 

[McWicked]

In manufacturing engineering there is a concept known as DFM (design for manufacturability). Which has the aim of designing parts to be as easily manufactured as possible. This concept has been broadened to entail DFA (design for assembly). DFA is probably the main driver behind head-integrated exhaust manifolds, not DFP (performance). It reduces the number of parts, gaskets and fasteners and creates a more compact package for engine installation. Saving time and money.

From a performance standpoint there are pros and cons like anything else. I personally would prefer to see the manifold integrated with the turbo housing, as opposed to being moved inside the head. However for reasons I haven't quite figured out, auto manufacturers don't consult with me. In any case, this is a growing trend. So if I worked for a company that made external wastegates... I'd be updating my CV/resume.

 

[MA617M]

Absolutely. But when you have access to both options, and you have the legendary success of the JZ engines in the A80 Supra to follow on from... Surely you'd chose the 6-port head. Surely.

(We use DFM, PPAP, DFMEA, PFMEA etc etc all at my work so you're speaking my language lol)

 

[McWicked]

Surely you'd choose the 6-port head. Surely.

Yes. Yes, I would.

 

[Nurburgring]

In manufacturing engineering there is a concept known as DFM (design for manufacturability). Which has the aim of designing parts to be as easily manufactured as possible. This concept has been broadened to entail DFA (design for assembly). DFA is probably the main driver behind head-integrated exhaust manifolds, not DFP (performance). It reduces the number of parts, gaskets and fasteners and creates a more compact package for engine installation. Saving time and money

No doubt, manufacturing simplicity and cost savings are important factors. Having dealt more than once with cracking (aftermarket) tubular manifolds and failing fasteners, can`t say I`m too sad to see it go. The main performance downside is that it will ultimately restrict flow at some point, at what level we don`t know. At least from empyrical evidence from the VW engine, seems you can still reach very high power levels with this design.

When Ford Europe compared the two designs they found zero power loss, lower EGTs, less manufacturing costs.

 

[Blissya]

Is the Cayman GT4 the laughingstock of the car world? 385bhp for around $90-$105k, yet it is considered a bargain for the amount of car you get.
The complete picture of the car is more than just power..
Of course there's value in the Porsche badge over Toyota, but you can't underestimate the effect of weight on performance.

And a gt4 costs more now than when new, in uk anyway

 

[PerformanceSound]

@A70TTR , anything unusual about the timing chain orientation of new and current B58 from the picture in the article?

Could this have anything to do with a possible 90 degree engine orientation vs conventional BMW style?

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