Say Adios to your modifications

[AustinGRSupra]

Yep: I’m understand this having conducted air quality research in the past. I’m old enough to remember L.A. smog, which has been greatly reduced because of the clean air act.

Sorry, I added a bit above to what you quote. Illinois is a case in point: in Chicago, 7 regional oil companies teamed up with GM, the Environmental Defense Fund, and the IL EPA to create a state-wide program for the destruction of 75k vehicles per year. These programs dictated that no parts be harvested from the cars before they were shredded.

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[AustinGRSupra]

Video: Overly Exaggerated / Excitable Drama Queen

You are right; it is hyperbole, much of which comes from deep passion for cars. It is understandable in that sense. There are, though, Tadda, real human costs for the forced-march quality that “progress”—in this case, environmental—sometimes has.

There is, in other words, a human and moral economy that corresponds to the political economy of banning certain mods. It has costs that don’t fall on everyone equally (perhaps for those mentioned who lifted themselves from depression through their cars). Along these lines, I recommend pp. 66-83 of the interesting book by Matthew Crawford called Why We Drive: Toward a Philosophy of the Open Road. Actually, I recommend the whole book.

 

[H2O_Doc]

Sorry, I added a bit above to what you quote. Illinois is a case in point: in Chicago, 7 regional oil companies teamed up with GM, the Environmental Defense Fund, and the IL EPA to create a state-wide program for the destruction of 75k vehicles per year. These programs dictated that no parts be harvested from the cars before they were shredded.

Not sure if this is the same issue, but Inteva

You are right; it is hyperbole, much of which comes from deep passion for cars. It is understandable in that sense. There are, though, Tadda, real human costs for the forced-march quality that “progress”—in this case, environmental—sometimes has.

There is, in other words, a human and moral economy that corresponds to the political economy of banning certain mods. It has costs that don’t fall on everyone equally (perhaps for those mentioned who lifted themselves from depression through their cars). I recommend pp. 66-83 of the interesting book by Matthew Crawford called Why We Drive: Toward a Philosophy of the Open Road. Actually, I recommend the whole book.

OK, but EPA has a statutory, legal, requirement to enforce the clean air act. One could also argue a moral obligation. The increase in decatted cars and trucks and cars and trucks modified to bypass emissions controls have made that a big component of noncompliance and a significant source of NOx, SOx, and particulate matter. If EPA left this unaddressed, they would be sued eventually, but more importantly they would be giving the middle finger to congress and the American people.

 

[tadda]

You are right; it is hyperbole, much of which comes from deep passion for cars. It is understandable in that sense. There are, though, Tadda, real human costs for the forced-march quality that “progress”—in this case, environmental—sometimes has.

There is, in other words, a human and moral economy that corresponds to the political economy of banning certain mods. It has costs that don’t fall on everyone equally (perhaps for those mentioned who lifted themselves from depression through their cars). Along these lines, I recommend pp. 66-83 of the interesting book by Matthew Crawford called Why We Drive: Toward a Philosophy of the Open Road. Actually, I recommend the whole book.

I find decaf helps....

 

[XtremeMaC]

If Euro 7 emission standard gets approved by the end of the year, which will enforce zero emissions by 2025, it'll takeaway a lot more than de-catting..

What I don't get is, there are millions of ancient, not maintained, not emission checked gas guzzler vehicles roaming around and there is no law against the usage and regulation in majority of the states, but then they want to go after the minority of modders that turn their car into "racecars" and the industry along with it. Well then first enforce emission checks like CA for all and see how that goes...

Do these people even hear counter-arguments or think of the consequences? Yes, I get the green bill and I'm all for greener world, but see my first point about that....

Add in the locked ECU....

 

[H2O_Doc]

If Euro 7 emission standard gets approved by the end of the year, which will enforce zero emissions by 2025, it'll takeaway a lot more than de-catting..

What I don't get is, there are millions of ancient, not maintained, not emission checked gas guzzler vehicles roaming around and there is no law against the usage and regulation in majority of the states, but then they want to go after the minority of modders that turn their car into "racecars" and the industry along with it. Well then first enforce emission checks like CA for all and see how that goes...

Do these people even hear counter-arguments or think of the consequences? Yes, I get the green bill and I'm all for greener world, but see my first point about that....

Add in the locked ECU....

I understand your frustration completely. Here is where a lot of the race car contention comes in. Many vendors sell to both street drivers and competition drivers. They rightly state that things like catless downpipes etc are for off-road (e.g. on track) use only. But, there is little to no enforcement at the point of sale. This allows people with no intent to make their cars track-only to drive vehicles on the road that do not comply with the laws that you and I follow.

yes, there are vintage cars that pollute a lot worse, but they are decreasing in number every day. There is certainly no perfect solution.

 

[piper1]

To all who voted for Potato Joe....hope you are happy .

Look at the smile on his face while he's driving, yes, he's a car guy, He loves to drive, more so than someone being driven in a limo his whole life. Never seen another President equally happy to drive enthusiastically. No modifications, what about all the Jeep and ORV owners, huge in rock climbing and dunes in MI. It is quite true that if there are "no mods" allowed it will hurt the entire industry, tourism in fact, but you can't point blame solely on one person you don't like in office.

We shall see, but I'm sure there will be those that take heed to citizens state by state and weigh the over all impact. Write to your local leaders expressing your concern, but the EPA has no rebuttal If you ask them what taking a new F-150 electric modifying it to run on sand dunes effects the air you'd breath. I do agree that action has to be taken, but not the blame game. More so the legal explanation of the how's and whys with factual data.

Hell, take on the logging companies and see where that'd get you, put ever wood turning hobbyist right out of things to do in the workshop.

 

[H2O_Doc]

Look at the smile on his face while he's driving, yes, he's a car guy, He loves to drive, more so than someone being driven in a limo his whole life. Never seen another President equally happy to drive enthusiastically. No modifications, what about all the Jeep and ORV owners, huge in rock climbing and dunes in MI. It is quite true that if there are "no mods" allowed it will hurt the entire industry, tourism in fact, but you can't point blame solely on one person you don't like in office.

We shall see, but I'm sure there will be those that take heed to citizens state by state and weigh the over all impact. Write to your local leaders expressing your concern, but the EPA has no rebuttal If you ask them what taking a new F-150 electric modifying it to run on sand dunes effects the air you'd breath. I do agree that action has to be taken, but not the blame game. More so the legal explanation of the how's and whys with factual data.

Hell, take on the logging companies and see where that'd get you, put ever wood turning hobbyist right out of things to do in the workshop.

No one has proposed no mods. No one has proposed anything close to that. It’s unfortunate, but people are getting mostly spun up for nothing.

If you want to be able to decat your street car and continue to drive it on the street legally, then yes, there is an issue. But there has been for many decades under that hypothetical.

 

[XtremeMaC]

I don't disagree and I definitely don't want this thread turning into a political shitshow, but having a responsibility for masses for the greater good and for next generations isn't the same as I enjoy cars and burnouts..

If Jay Leno was the president and all facts were presented to him about emissions, I'm sure he'd have some sleepless nights yet in the end had to comply with today's emission standards...

However, there are a lot more venues to focus on and many aspects that offset the emission balance and you'd assume they'd write up a more well-thought-out law inclusive of all... Filtering cow's asses, etc..

On the other hand, let's say if US is 100% electric, but other regions are 200% relaxed on emissions, we wouldn't achieve the targets, that's why collective effort with Paris accord, etc. is needed...

One thing is clear Europe is always ahead on super strict on emissions and have OPF/GPF already in the Supra, so US following delayed suit isn't something new. This restriction may be inevitable. If they enforce stop-sell on decats, then you'll just have people removing cats. If you introduce a bill for emission certificates, then people will put cats back in.. Cop sees smog out of pipe, pulls over writes you a ticket.... These things already happen in EU..

What I'm trying to say is, darn it's a difficult subject to sort out if you care about the environment. What "caring about environment" means is also not easy concept to understand/apply imho.

 

[H2O_Doc]

I don't disagree and I definitely don't want this thread turning into a political shitshow, but having a responsibility for masses for the greater good and for next generations isn't the same as I enjoy cars and burnouts..

If Jay Leno was the president and all facts were presented to him about emissions, I'm sure he'd have some sleepless nights yet in the end had to comply with today's emission standards...

However, there are a lot more venues to focus on and many aspects that offset the emission balance and you'd assume they'd write up a more well-thought-out law inclusive of all... Filtering cow's asses, etc..

On the other hand, let's say if US is 100% electric, but other regions are 200% relaxed on emissions, we wouldn't achieve the targets, that's why collective effort with Paris accord, etc. is needed...

One thing is clear Europe is always ahead on super strict on emissions and have OPF/GPF already in the Supra, so US following delayed suit isn't something new. This restriction may be inevitable. If they enforce stop-sell on decats, then you'll just have people removing cats. If you introduce a bill for emission certificates, then people will put cats back in.. Cop sees smog out of pipe, pulls over writes you a ticket.... These things already happen in EU..

What I'm trying to say is, darn it's a difficult subject to sort out if you care about the environment. What "caring about environment" means is also not easy concept to understand/apply imho.

Very good points and this is why we need international diplomacy.

And something else you said reminded me of something, and it is something that is happing here that I have thought to comment on in the past. This forum is unusual in the LACK of political or maybe better said “politicized”discussion. It’s also generally very civil. Yes, there are spats here and there, but it’s way better than some forums I’ve been in. I’ll keep up my end of that.

So, I’m glad most all of us can discuss important automotive issues in a friendly manner even when there is disagreement. And Tungsten is the best color Supra ever made: at least we can all agree that is an uncontroversial objectively true statement.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Very good points and this is why we need international diplomacy.

And something else you said reminded me of something, and it is something that is happing here that I have thought to comment on in the past. This forum is unusual in the LACK of political or maybe better said “politicized”discussion. It’s also generally very civil. Yes, there are spats here and there, but it’s way better than some forums I’ve been in. I’ll keep up my end of that.

So, I’m glad most all of us can discuss important automotive issues in a friendly manner even when there is disagreement. And Tungsten is the best color Supra ever made: at least we can all agree that is an uncontroversial objectively true statement.

Sorry no, it's actually Nitro Yellow.

 

[Dannyvandelft]

Sorry no, it's actually Nitro Yellow.

You spelled Refraction Blue wrong.

 

[Bflood]

I am happy. Trumplestiltskin only cared about himself and his 1% buddies. His inability to act killed hundreds of thousands of Americans unnecessarily, and let's not forget his act of treason by sending a mob to overthrow our government and democracy and then try to illegally overturn the election.

P.S. how did the Hydroxychloroquine taste?

How's that saying go? It's better to remain silent and be thought an idiot than speak and remove all doubt.

 

[piper1]

I don't disagree and I definitely don't want this thread turning into a political shitshow, but having a responsibility for masses for the greater good and for next generations isn't the same as I enjoy cars and burnouts..

If Jay Leno was the president and all facts were presented to him about emissions, I'm sure he'd have some sleepless nights yet in the end had to comply with today's emission standards...

Well First part was a bit more than just the title of "burnout" If you watch through it all, even with driving with Colin Powell in his C7 behind and passing Biden, you can clearly tell he's a car guy. I really hate the blame to one person for what the entire Global market is and going to. One thing Trump never could convince me was knowing that the auto industry is a global industry and how globally it operates. Even if I didn't work in the auto manufacturing industry, which I do, working retail for 14 years previously showed me that in making any product there is some type of reliance in one shape or form or another on someone else, I sold fishing tackle for example one point in my life, there's a reason why shimano gears dominate, their bike gears are among the industry best, there's a reason some American made reels also incorporate Japanese made bearings. Same with the auto sector. The industry world wide is trying to get production vehicles lower in emissions. You can't blame that on one person. That's where I was starting to go with the video, should have explained it better, that in my opinion Biden has the grasp on the industry that I don't think in my opinion Trump had (Not based by the video just using the video showing he's a car guy).

Also another thing overlooked with customizing cars, car's are built for a mass target, not the individual. As watching some of the drama in the OP 1st post vids, why are track only race cars targeted, that aren't run every day. A common person who goes sunny weekends to the track that would fail emissions is being targeted in this. Even if the car is trailered.

However, there are a lot more venues to focus on and many aspects that offset the emission balance and you'd assume they'd write up a more well-thought-out law inclusive of all... Filtering cow's asses, etc..

For those wondering about global air quality pollution, watch a Doc. called "The Game Changers" on Netflix (Produced by Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jackie Chan). At the end of this Doc. it gives some very staggering numbers to this. But even when seeing those numbers, will it stop you from eating a Big Mac?

For putting restrictions on how people modify their cars, In Michigan there's an event called the Woodward Dream Cruise. (XtremeMaC I know you've been ) https://www.facebook.com/WoodwardDreamCruise/

I have a picture where someone built a very large motorized shopping cart. When I say very large it was least 20' tall. Most that gets televised are classic cars, but what really stands out are the customs, rat rods, and all the mix there in between. Compare to when I lived in NC where if your car coughed wrong they'd fail emissions on it. Both states are very different, one with safety and emissions inspection, the other you could be missing your floor board and no one would think twice.
I just can't see people building something ground up and having to pass emissions on even home built creations, Factory 5 kits for example or anything of the likes. Daily street car sure, I could see.

I could see more adaptions of something like this : https://www.michigan.gov/documents/BFS-72__09-03__83315_7.pdf
for special title for emissions failing cars, especially if they are designated track cars.

 

[supraboi]

Look at the smile on his face while he's driving, yes, he's a car guy, He loves to drive, more so than someone being driven in a limo his whole life. Never seen another President equally happy to drive enthusiastically.

Supposedly 45 had a 1st gen NSX that the drove around NYC and later gave it to his mistress Marla Maples.

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