Toyota GR GT3 Concept / Lexus LFR

[PerformanceSound]

Sounds expensive if the A100 is based on a Lexus.

Define expensive. With inflation, weak currency, EV propaganda, and decline in sports car market….almost every premium sports car from any manufacturer will start in the high $60k to mid $70k soon anyhow. I don’t think the Toyota will necessary be “based” on the Lexus. I believe it will be a global platform that each brand will have to cater to their niche audience. TMC will say to Toyota and Lexus teams, “here you go, a modern sports car chassis that no matter what…it will have a base cost of x amount of money. What you decide to do with it from here, will dictate it’s sale price.” As I have said before, I believe the Lexus will have ICE/Hybrid and full electric variant, while the Toyota variant will have ICE and possibly ICE/Hybrid. The Lexus will get everything….I mean EVERYTHING! The Toyota will get enough to be competitive. Different sheet metal obviously, and if what I understand is true….different powertrains for both brands. I don’t believe the Lexus will get an inline engine at all.

Sponsored

 

[KahnBB6]

Unfortunately, Toyota’s goal with the next flagship sports car cannot ride on a touring chassis….it’s the best or nothing. The only chassis they can use to accomplish this (without outsourcing) will be from one they share with Lexus (LFA successor). Both brands want to have a solid chassis, but the rest will be unique to each brand. Also, I know for a fact that the next “Supra” will need to have a better chassis than the current….this will be interesting on how they will accomplish that because the MKV is already stiffer than the LFA.

Slightly disappointing but not at all surprising. And it seems that the Crown coupe model and EV Celica will be future models filling the gap that upscale Toyota badged RWD coupe grand touring cars once filled. They won't be the same kind of thing (as a Z30 Soarer) but I'm glad they will be there on the Toyota side. Lexus of course has their own touring coupe(s).

I'm glad that the A100 will get such a high end sportscar platform as its base. That's how it should be since it's a showcase for their best (well... apart from Lexus showcasing their BEST best).

A big structural differentiator will probably be in the use of steel vs aluminum for the base frame... or carbon fiber structural frame... and body parts in carbon fiber vs conventional steel and aluminum.

Define expensive. With inflation, weak currency, EV propaganda, and decline in sports car market….almost every premium sports car from any manufacturer will start in the high $60k to mid $70k soon anyhow. I don’t think the Toyota will necessary be “based” on the Lexus. I believe it will be a global platform that each brand will have to cater to their niche audience. TMC will say to Toyota and Lexus teams, “here you go, a modern sports car chassis that no matter what…it will have a base cost of x amount of money. What you decide to do with it from here, will dictate it’s sale price.” As I have said before, I believe the Lexus will have ICE/Hybrid and full electric variant, while the Toyota variant will have ICE and possibly ICE/Hybrid. The Lexus will get everything….I mean EVERYTHING! The Toyota will get enough to be competitive. Different sheet metal obviously, and if what I understand is true….different powertrains for both brands. I don’t believe the Lexus will get an inline engine at all.

If the Lexus variant doesn't get an inline engine and only two Toyota/Lexus cars will share this platform then that probably also suggests that the Toyota A100 variant also won't get an inline-six unique to it and no other Toyota/Lexus model. Although it would be nice if they did pull a top grade rabbit out of a hat for the A100 so long as it's got some form of a combustion engine.

 

[Bryster]

Didn't A70 say something about how Lexus was going to start asking for more from Toyota?

 

[PerformanceSound]

Slightly disappointing but not at all surprising. And it seems that the Crown coupe model and EV Celica will be future models filling the gap that upscale Toyota badged RWD coupe grand touring cars once filled. They won't be the same kind of thing (as a Z30 Soarer) but I'm glad they will be there on the Toyota side. Lexus of course has their own touring coupe(s).

I'm glad that the A100 will get such a high end sportscar platform as its base. That's how it should be since it's a showcase for their best (well... apart from Lexus showcasing their BEST best).

A big structural differentiator will probably be in the use of steel vs aluminum for the base frame... or carbon fiber structural frame... and body parts in carbon fiber vs conventional steel and aluminum.




If the Lexus variant doesn't get an inline engine and only two Toyota/Lexus cars will share this platform then that probably also suggests that the Toyota A100 variant also won't get an inline-six unique to it and no other Toyota/Lexus model. Although it would be nice if they did pull a top grade rabbit out of a hat for the A100 so long as it's got some form of a combustion engine.

Lexus can’t mate their hybrid systems with an inline six engine. I believe the Lexus will be either V configuration turbo with hybrid, or all electric. The Toyota will have either a inline six turbo or inline four turbo with hybrid. Supposedly Toyota is making three variations of the inline four turbo motor for a list of cars (with or without hybrid). Inline four turbo open deck, inline four turbo closed deck, and inline four turbo closed deck diesel. For the “Supra” the inline six turbo or inline four closed deck turbo with hybrid. 4Runner is supposed to get a similar setup. As for the inline six, this may explain the talk around the Mazda/Toyota collaboration….makes sense as it will be the only inline six engine Toyota would use, so no need for full tooling for limited production. An inline six turbo hybrid will be hard to manage in a chassis in terms of balance and weight distribution, kind of counteracting the purpose of the new chassis.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Lexus can’t mate their hybrid systems with an inline six engine. I believe the Lexus will be either V configuration turbo with hybrid, or all electric. The Toyota will have either a inline six turbo or inline four turbo with hybrid. Supposedly Toyota is making three variations of the inline four turbo motor for a list of cars (with or without hybrid). Inline four turbo open deck, inline four turbo closed deck, and inline four turbo closed deck diesel. For the “Supra” the inline six turbo or inline four closed deck turbo with hybrid. 4Runner is supposed to get a similar setup. As for the inline six, this may explain the talk around the Mazda/Toyota collaboration….makes sense as it will be the only inline six engine Toyota would use, so no need for full tooling for limited production. An inline six turbo hybrid will be hard to manage in a chassis in terms of balance and weight distribution, kind of counteracting the purpose of the new chassis.

Man I'm going to miss the B58.

Hope it's a Toyota engine though.

 

[PerformanceSound]

Man I'm going to miss the B58.

Hope it's a Toyota engine though.

They have a few “heavy hitters” involved in the R&D for the next motor. It’s definitely not a “Toyota only” involvement . I like Toyota’s direction with this because it will continue to make the “A100” more exclusive and still be competitive.

In all honesty, I want to see the interior design of the next gen car more than the drivetrain….there are “things” floating around that the next gen car will have a great deal of queues from the MKIV. 2024 will be a good year for several Toyota models.

 

[Bryster]

They have a few “heavy hitters” involved in the R&D for the next motor. It’s definitely not a “Toyota only” involvement . I like Toyota’s direction with this because it will continue to make the “A100” more exclusive and still be competitive.

In all honesty, I want to see the interior design of the next gen car more than the drivetrain….there are “things” floating around that the next gen car will have a great deal of queues from the MKIV. 2024 will be a good year for several Toyota models.

there are “things” floating around that the next gen car will have a great deal of queues from the MKIV.

Narrator: including the steering wheel

 

[KahnBB6]

there are “things” floating around that the next gen car will have a great deal of queues from the MKIV.

Narrator: including the steering wheel

I hope you mean the 1999-2002 style MKIV Supra steering wheel. A few Toyota models of that era used the same design (late model MKIV's, Altezza/IS200/IS300, MR2 Spyder, '98-?? Rav4, etc.) and it's an excellent and pleasing design.

I have one installed in my SC300 (with an identical IS300 airbag center that has the "L" logo embossed instead of the "T" logo) and I love it. It's an excellent, well sized design that feels great to hold and use.

There was also one other factory three spoke steering wheel variant that came in late model MKIV's that is slightly thinner at the center.

They have a few “heavy hitters” involved in the R&D for the next motor. It’s definitely not a “Toyota only” involvement . I like Toyota’s direction with this because it will continue to make the “A100” more exclusive and still be competitive.

In all honesty, I want to see the interior design of the next gen car more than the drivetrain….there are “things” floating around that the next gen car will have a great deal of queues from the MKIV. 2024 will be a good year for several Toyota models.

This is good news! Sounds like even more Toyota R&D involvement than was already given to refining the BMW B58C and B58D engines.

It wouldn't surprise me if the new Mazda hybrid 2.5L and 3.0L inline-six engine family is a base for this development as you suggested earlier.

And actually *IF* that turns out to be the case it would allow for Toyota to have not only a Supra A100 with a new turbo inline-six but also another vehicle or two (a Chaser Tourer V / Mark II IRV successor?) using a slightly less powerful version of it as well. And of course with Mazda's push to go upscale as a brand this would allow them to offer one or two of their models with shared performance R&D in the engine in their own lineup.

I can hope they'll do something along those lines and make the most of the next few years with niche sports ICEs that are absolutely fun and definitely not boring.

The only downside I can see is the potential for the A100 Supra have a starting MSRP as much as a modern new Porsche 911 at over $100k USD for a barebones *base* model.

$60k-$70k-ish USD I get as we're already there now. Once the Supra starts at about $80k+ USD for a six-cylinder turbo model and we'll be where the MKIV was priced at in the late 1990's (adjusted for inflation).

Nobody expects any new Supra to be an inexpensive car by any means but if it does get up to base new 911 MSRP it will be in a different market demographic from those who buy it today.

As a point of comparison, we're all used to the Nissan GTR R35 being well over $100k+ USD base MSRP and it's been a phenomenal car since 2007 or so. But even though we never got the R32, R33 and R34 models in the U.S. before prices shot up after they became old enough to import those older GT-R models IMO have more in common with the class and style of car that the Supra MKV is rather than the more upmarket R35 GTR.

The hardware that appears to be in the development stages for the A100 is ticking all of the right boxes so I have no complaints but I do wonder if the next generation Supra will be priced closer to where the current R35 GTR and base 911 are in the market thus making it a far lower volume model than the MKV is.

At the end of the day I'm happy that these cars survive in good form at any price point but I do hope they remain semi-attainable price-wise going forward.

 

[Bryster]

I hope you mean the 1999-2002 style MKIV Supra steering wheel. A few Toyota models of that era used the same design (late model MKIV's, Altezza/IS200/IS300, MR2 Spyder, '98-?? Rav4, etc.) and it's an excellent and pleasing design.

I have one installed in my SC300 (with an identical IS300 airbag center that has the "L" logo embossed instead of the "T" logo) and I love it. It's an excellent, well sized design that feels great to hold and use.

There was also one other factory three spoke steering wheel variant that came in late model MKIV's that is slightly thinner at the center.

This is good news! Sounds like even more Toyota R&D involvement than was already given to refining the BMW B58C and B58D engines.

It wouldn't surprise me if the new Mazda hybrid 2.5L and 3.0L inline-six engine family is a base for this development as you suggested earlier.

And actually *IF* that turns out to be the case it would allow for Toyota to have not only a Supra A100 with a new turbo inline-six but also another vehicle or two (a Chaser Tourer V / Mark II IRV successor?) using a slightly less powerful version of it as well. And of course with Mazda's push to go upscale as a brand this would allow them to offer one or two of their models with shared performance R&D in the engine in their own lineup.

I can hope they'll do something along those lines and make the most of the next few years with niche sports ICEs that are absolutely fun and definitely not boring.

The only downside I can see is the potential for the A100 Supra have a starting MSRP as much as a modern new Porsche 911 at over $100k USD for a barebones *base* model.

$60k-$70k-ish USD I get as we're already there now. Once the Supra starts at about $80k+ USD for a six-cylinder turbo model and we'll be where the MKIV was priced at in the late 1990's (adjusted for inflation).

Nobody expects any new Supra to be an inexpensive car by any means but if it does get up to base new 911 MSRP it will be in a different market demographic from those who buy it today.

As a point of comparison, we're all used to the Nissan GTR R35 being well over $100k+ USD base MSRP and it's been a phenomenal car since 2007 or so. But even though we never got the R32, R33 and R34 models in the U.S. before prices shot up after they became old enough to import those older GT-R models IMO have more in common with the class and style of car that the Supra MKV is rather than the more upmarket R35 GTR.

The hardware that appears to be in the development stages for the A100 is ticking all of the right boxes so I have no complaints but I do wonder if the next generation Supra will be priced closer to where the current R35 GTR and base 911 are in the market thus making it a far lower volume model than the MKV is.

At the end of the day I'm happy that these cars survive in good form at any price point but I do hope they remain semi-attainable price-wise going forward.

I was thinking about that, and i came to the conclusion that Toyota still wants the FT1 to be a real thing

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

They have a few “heavy hitters” involved in the R&D for the next motor. It’s definitely not a “Toyota only” involvement . I like Toyota’s direction with this because it will continue to make the “A100” more exclusive and still be competitive.

In all honesty, I want to see the interior design of the next gen car more than the drivetrain….there are “things” floating around that the next gen car will have a great deal of queues from the MKIV. 2024 will be a good year for several Toyota models.

A90 ends production in 2026 though......

They have a few “heavy hitters” involved in the R&D for the next motor. It’s definitely not a “Toyota only” involvement .

I know I'm in the minority, but I would rather take a BMW engine modified and enhanced by Toyota or a Toyota engine on its own instead of a Mazda engine. It just seems wrong in terms of optics given the status of the brands. If Mazda does not make their own variant of the A100 it will look like Mazda is just "handing over" their engine to Toyota.

And if it is a Mazda block, then I would want everything else to have virtually zero relation to Mazda and have Toyota make it as their own.

 

[2JZ-No-Sh*t]

Sounds good so far!

 

[KahnBB6]

A90 ends production in 2026 though......



I know I'm in the minority, but I would rather take a BMW engine modified and enhanced by Toyota or a Toyota engine on its own instead of a Mazda engine. It just seems wrong in terms of optics given the status of the brands. If Mazda does not make their own variant of the A100 it will look like Mazda is just "handing over" their engine to Toyota.

And if it is a Mazda block, then I would want everything else to have virtually zero relation to Mazda and have Toyota make it as their own.

The A90 indeed will no longer be sold after the 2026 model year (in actual year 2025) so that means that if the start of R&D on the Toyota GT3 Concept chassis began almost a year ago there would have anywhere between 4-5 years of total development time between when the concept was first announced and the bowing out of the Supra MKV.

Perhaps there would be a year or two gap between the MKV's final model year before the MKVI is announced or released for sale.

As for Mazda, IF their inline-six engine is involved I don't think they're just giving it up to Toyota. Remember they have plans to grow their brand as luxury automaker. We already know that the next RX coupe is a series EV hybrid with a rotary as a generator that will rev out with acceleration while motors power the wheels and that it is being co-developed with the Toyota GR Celica EV coupe.

But they're still interested in selling an upscale Mazda6 sedan replacement as a luxury model and they may well still be planning to sell a luxury coupe version as well in addition to their RX coupe. Where this leaves the Miata I have no idea but they'd better keep it around.

Other than powering their extremely similar looking SUV lineup it's not certain what Mazda will or won't do with the inline six engine design but if Toyota is sharing R&D costs with them on developing it further this probably would motivate them that much more to create some more vehicles to put variants of it into.

All just speculation from me but I'd ask what you all think given the very few facts we do know.

 

[PerformanceSound]

The only downside I can see is the potential for the A100 Supra have a starting MSRP as much as a modern new Porsche 911 at over $100k USD for a barebones *base* model.

$60k-$70k-ish USD I get as we're already there now. Once the Supra starts at about $80k+ USD for a six-cylinder turbo model and we'll be where the MKIV was priced at in the late 1990's (adjusted for inflation).

Nobody expects any new Supra to be an inexpensive car by any means but if it does get up to base new 911 MSRP it will be in a different market demographic from those who buy it today.

As a point of comparison, we're all used to the Nissan GTR R35 being well over $100k+ USD base MSRP and it's been a phenomenal car since 2007 or so. But even though we never got the R32, R33 and R34 models in the U.S. before prices shot up after they became old enough to import those older GT-R models IMO have more in common with the class and style of car that the Supra MKV is rather than the more upmarket R35 GTR.

Rumor is the next gen T4R will be between $49k starting up to $69k top tier….that’s for a T4R!!! For a limited production sports car (aka A100), I wouldn’t be surprised if it stickers for $75k+ starting (no goodies). Until we get our inflation under control, it will be tough buying a car period during these times.

 

[KahnBB6]

Rumor is the next gen T4R will be between $49k starting up to $69k top tier….that’s for a T4R!!! For a limited production sports car (aka A100), I wouldn’t be surprised if it stickers for $75k+ starting (no goodies). Until we get our inflation under control, it will be tough buying a car period during these times.

GIven that the 4Runner isn't even the same class of SUV that it once was and also given that the far too large Tacoma is almost never available in an ultra basic single cab configuration (it's just a TRUCK after all) and since both vehicles and all their competitors are jammed with equipment and creature comforts you'd have previously found on mid-level and luxury family vehicles I am not surprised.

Annoyed and perplexed at why pickups are so large and kitted out now and why huge SUVs that most people never take offroad are such popular moneymakers with ever escalating prices and ever increasing size and weight yes... but I'm not surprised.

Yet for an A100 with a state of the art chassis shared with the future LFA successor... I can see a $75k+ MSRP for it. That's not easier to contemplate than the MKV's price ranges but it's still technically in line with what Supra MKIV Turbo models basically cost in the 90's.

It's looking like all the right hardware will be there for the A100 so the long term value proposition won't be like throwing up to $69k USD into a fire pit to buy a 4Runner which will in only a few years be worth a fraction of its original transaction price as a used car.... for a mall crawler SUV

This is just the state of the car market in general right now. At the end of the day I am happy that the MKV is being sold with great options and equipment, that the GR86, GR Yaris and GR Corolla are being sold, that the A100 is in development with good prospects and that many other great performance cars are still being sold and developed at different price points.

 

[C-Pike]

With that private track, you guys know we're not going to see any camo test mules anytime soon.

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