Spied: Toyota benchmarking Porsche 911 GT3 RS (997) for new Supra?

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DevonK

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Not to mention visibility
LOL. So true, especially for the Camaro.

OTOH I'm not sure the Supra is going to be that great in the visibility department - it's got a high cowl and side windowline relative to the driver's position, with a low greenhouse. And those massive C pillars out back will create big blindspots.




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Spilner

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LOL. So true, especially for the Camaro.

OTOH I'm not sure the Supra is going to be that great in the visibility department - it's got a high cowl and side windowline relative to the driver's position, with a low greenhouse. And those massive C pillars out back will create big blindspots.
How good is the 86's visibility?
 

DevonK

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How good is the 86's visibility?
Reasonably good forwards, you can see tops of the fenders, helpful for positioning the car (although compared to pretty much any Honda you won't be seeing much above the tops of the street lights). Very large rear-quarter blind spots. Out the back window - could be worse, but not great.
 

Spilner

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Reasonably good forwards, you can see tops of the fenders, helpful for positioning the car (although compared to pretty much any Honda you won't be seeing much above the tops of the street lights). Very large rear-quarter blind spots. Out the back window - could be worse, but not great.
Judging by the C-Pillars, it looks to be the same on the MKV, though it being a liftback may help
 

supraboi

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What happened to the abortion known as the MR-S, which was all about "mah handling?" Canceled. What is currently happening to 86 and it's "mah handling?" Sales nose diving. Current year sales are close to 1/3 of intro sales. If it keeps going, it will be another Toyota failure.
That's actually pretty common for niche products in general. Look up sales for the Nissan Z, Miata, SLK, Z4, and etc. Even the almighty GT-R started at 1,730 units in 2008 and now is down to just 578 units for 2017.
 

HKz

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That's actually pretty common for niche products in general. Look up sales for the Nissan Z, Miata, SLK, Z4, and etc. Even the almighty GT-R started at 1,730 units in 2008 and now is down to just 578 units for 2017.
exactly...not to mention outofstep is probably merely going off of US sales...the 86 has been doing fine worldwide especially in countries with strict emission requirements.
 

Jdmuscle

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Not to mention visibility
Camaros are notorious with that.. but my Shelby is amazing.

I’d imagine the Supra to be something like my Viper or the Z06.. big blind spots due to the c-pillar and that perfectly acceptable
 

Modal170

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This is the problem with you people that didnt/dont own a Supra... At the time, the Supra WAS comparable to all the other GT cars (key word there) on the market. Yet now, we are somehow supposed to swallow that its okay the Supra is short damn near 100 hp to the same cars it competed with in the 90s-00s?

Everyone else evolved, but the Supra evolution was barely 50 hp?




This paragraph is winding and has no logical point. ANY GT or Sports car is subject to going through tires. If you owned one, you would know this. The original point I was making is that the LTE, which can be had for the low 60s RAPES the ever living fuck out of the leaked Supra specs in terms of price, HANDLING, and HP.

We are being told that the Supra is so expensive because of all the handling and Ring tuning thats going on. Yet a car 20k cheaper has hundreds of more horsepower and damn near 40secs less of a lap time on the Ring. Thats just embarrassing for toyota and flies in the face of all the justifications given for the Supra 60-80k rumored price.



None of the leaked specs even sniff at 911 performance numbers. The 911 is sub 7 mins on the ring, not the supposed 7:40 the new Supra is posting.



Again, thats a fake ass red herring argument. For the past decade when Toyota bowed out of anything even remotely performace related, Ford and Chevy started tuning on the ring. The C7 Vette is posting low 7s on the ring, the Camaro LTE is posting even lower times on the Ring. The Mustang GT350s low 8s are comparable to the new Supra high 7s on the ring.

More HP, BETTER handling, lower price by tens of thousands from multiple cars = I hope to hell none of these Supra rumors are true.



Apparently handing isnt everything either, because almost every domestic has an option with MORE hp, and BETTER handling (as proven by ring times), at a substantially lower price point.


Dont get me wrong or get it twisted. I WANT the Supra to be a success. But all these rumors are very upsetting. It looks like Toyota isnt even remotely competitive in terms of price, hp, or handling. Then throw in the fact that there isnt a manual option an no targa top? ...
Whew, finally at a computer so I can dissect this post. Buckle down, this is a long one. There's a TLDR afterwards if you want to skip the facts.
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I am a twenty three year old who bought the 86 and have friends older than me who tracked honda Civics and personally tuned Supras in their heyday. Even one has a garage for doing mods and handiwork. Cool guy. They know the Supra became the Supra from its tuning potential and its engine. Never was it for its handling, though it helped. It's purpose was a GT car that morphed to something Toyota was unaware of what it would be. The Supra made 320 HP and we get 350 HP potentially, at 55k, and on a substantial diet than its origin. The Chief Engineer and President have Supras for days, they know what it's suppose to be and make a connection to the driver. I wouldn't doubt them at all for making the car and appealing to everyone.

As for the competition, let me ask you. How much is the GTR? How much is the NSX? Let me save you the google search. 90k to 120k for the GTR and 150k and up for the NSX. Those cars are no longer similar to their previous generations. The Supra is realistically priced the same as when it came out back in its days including inflation. I consider that a step in the right direction. What cars does it compete at its segment? The Corvette and the cayman. We'll get back to this later.

The reason why I brought Tires into the mix is that the LTE camaro will be going through Tires like a motherfucker for handling the weight and rubber for the weight it's pulling. As I've said earlier, I have an 86, it's in the cars I've owned, don't make quick judgements. I had the 86 for a year and I feel I'm going to need a replacement for the tires for the hard turns I'm doing but I digress. I'm just saying it's more so for these limited editions LTE package that it won't last a year for track ready performance.

As for the price, these cars perhaps may rape the Supra, and that's fine and dandy, but I rarely see these cars in the streets and are rarely for normal driving. Ask yourself, when's the last time you see a 60k american car on the streets? I see mustangs, camaros and Challengers for the 16 and up demographic but I rarely see this same demographic purchasing 60k cars. If anything, this is the Mopar wanking to ring numbers to show they can perform on the ring but no one's buying this car. This is just a way to compete with one another to show they are making the better vehicle. As engineering improves, the ring numbers will keep getting lower and lower. The buyers are content buying the image of a two door mustang or camaro for the prestige and not the actual abilities for tracking except for the few who do. Or maybe I'm in the wrong neighborhood to be in. I see a lot of I8's and Panameras and corvettes compared to mustangs where I live, which begs the question, who's the market for?

As for the new Supra, I have not heard a single comment about the ring numbers. Please send me the link for the numbers and the date because Toyota is privately testing their Supra in Japan and could be having better numbers but are waiting for press release. There's so much shit happening in the last year of testing that anything goes at this point as A70 has shown.

To sum up the point, no one's buying 40k plus mopar cars cause at that point, they go for the corvette, which is at legend status for how long it's been in production.

The Supra might be 55k due to the fact its' been twenty years since they made the car, needing to craft something from the ground up and spend R&D to make something new. Compare this to the Mopar constantly working and working on the engines and chassis for the old generations and improve until they perform like they do now. Please see the camaros and Mustangs and Challengers pre 2010. The Mustang was topping at 390 HP in 2004 for 39k.

How much is that in today's numbers?

Wow, it's 52k, right around where the Supra will be supposedly. You can say that's the market at the time but I'm just giving you an idea what constant development can do between generations so the price can stay low.

Back to the pricing, 55k for a brand new car, brand new platform, chassis, engine and adjustments from Toyota who's trying to save money and revive the Supra's brand name is a difficult task to do and requires $$$ to get this accomplished. The leaked specs are suggesting 350HP or more, with a potential for 425 HP at 55k and staying under 3000 or right at 3000 lbs so it can sell over in America. If this is the case, would this still not be enough while maintaining the HP issues? Or the fact this can be tuned to perfection for the fanatics?

As for the 86, it came out at 2011 or 2012 and impressed everyone with the chassis and handling. The horsepower slowly kicked in once the rest of the industry tested the 86 and needed to make something on equal footing. You can see the new generations for the mopar occurred either 2012 or 2013 with improved handling, torque and horsepower numbers to outperform the 86 and BRZ combo. Now it's let in the dust until the second generation where Tada has said he will be addressing the 86 for the second generation.

As for the 86 numbers, let's check this. It sold roughly 11k in 2012, 18k in 2013 and 14k in 2014.

The BRZ also sold 4k in 2012, 8.5k in 2013 and 7k in 2014 to make it respectable for a first time sports entry for this kind of car. Who's it's competition?

The Miata.

The Miata also is selling similar numbers with an explosion for 2017 at 11k, the most it's sold since 2007. So, is this a failure for either car? Especially the 86/BRZ that shared cost and selling equivalently with its rival? I want to know exactly what's the matter with this? Don't even get me started on the community for either cars and how crazy they are going with mods and ideas to revive the tuning fun that has died down in the meanwhile until recently. a simple reddit ft86 link will show how much fun everyone is having making the 86/BRZ into a special car for themselves. I don't see that with Mopars.

And for the MRS, the car with the targa top, that changed from the mk2 version for a car that was too numb and nothing like it's predecessor and happened when everyone was transitioning to crossovers and SUV's? Oh yeah, that shit was DOA while Toyota changed the image of their brand or pushing with advertisements as the last sports car in the lineup. Don't forget the NHTSA cracking down on everyone to be safer and made it impractical for Japan.

You also wish to complain when they axed the Supra and all sports cars when the great recession hit Japan that made making sports cars impossible because it was impractical, combined with a CEO who wanted Toyota to be the number one brand in the world's eyes by forgoing exciting cars and buckling down on reliable appliances. Only now when the economy has been improved and a CEO who personally entered grand prix as a racer and the grand son of toyota's original CEO can they afford to make something that is essentially a pitfall for money to restore brand image. and come back as the sports car bastards that they were in the 90's for other automakers to compete against.
 

Modal170

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TLDR:

Supra specs, 3000 lbs, 350 HP or more, topping out possibly at 450 HP at 55k if Tada needs to sell in the great USA while scoring five stars on all safety standards. If not for NHTSA, we'd be looking at 2500 lbs for all we know. Toyota had a shit poor image of reliable appliances after 1999 and a new CEO taking over to fix Toyota's image and shy away from the sports brands cause they couldn't afford the loss of money. Thus they are trying to enter the sports car game with the Supra with new internals from BMW to save cost on both ends and revive the brand's image.

Toyota is testing the car in Japan and hasn't shown any mules compared to Germany and Poland where testing is easy to see but nowhere in Japan where Toyota has crafted a track that they used to test the LC500 and LFA that's impossible to be seen without special entry. They are not going to make the same issue at the start with the 86 on power and will use the newfound experience from the development of the 86 into the Supra to impress everyone. There will also be a second generation 86 that should fix the first generation power numbers too.

They are going after the Cayman in performance and will have to be competing against a cayman S or even higher trim to make potential buyers sway from the cayman. Considering the insiders, they've succeed despite the compromises.

The Mopar cars have never taken a break and can afford the research and development to go nuts with the horsepower and torque to do better on the ring but said top trim cars are rarely purchased. Those cars priced around 40k or more aren't purchased from my experience and is mostly to compete with the rivals than to sell. Not to mention it's at a higher trim when most are content with the lower trims. It appears the Supra will come in only one trim so you get track performance out the box with no need for upgrades. That's on the table. Not saying that's wrong to have a higher trim but at that price range, buyers go for the corvettes or head into foreign territory, not these amazing cars.

As for the manual, it's possible it will come but during a face lift refresh in a couple of years as Tada has hinted due to the outcry in Geneva. There will not be a targa top if toyota wants a pure sports car and no compromises on the handling and power aspect. Do some research before making a post like you did filled with contradictions and pre-conceived notions of the Supra when Toyota made certain what was needed to succeed by asking Mk4 owners for their opinions on what a Supra has to be.
 

Captain_Kirk

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Not the first time its been spotted with the M2. I think its safe to assume its the benchmark for the A90.
 

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