Dodge Charger Daytona SRT Concept (EV)

KahnBB6

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This is an interesting take on an enthusiast EV from Dodge. They don't, as far as I am aware, have access right now to any bleeding edge solid state battery technology so in all likelihood this thing probably weighs, as constructed, as much as a Tesla Model S Plaid or Taycan Turbo.

However there are three main draws:

1.) It has some kind of specially developed multi-speed transmission that can be shifted (like an old Torqueflight 3-speed prepped for drag racing, perhaps?). Dodge claims you can shift this specially designed "eRupt" (facepalm emoji for the silly name) transmission.

2.) It revs its electric motor, apparently. This is pretty common to see with DIY DC electric motor conversions to older manual transmission cars (just leave it in neutral and push your accelerator/potentiometer and there you go) but it's not common at all for production EVs.

If this is accurate it might be achieved by decoupling the electric motor from the drive gearset(s) in park, neutral or when in some kind of simulated "manual" mode. Dodge isn't saying how right now.

3.) The sound it makes when it's moving slowly HAS to be artificially generated. I just don't see how it wouldn't be. A low speed sound for EVs is Federally required after all.

However when you rev it, again, according to Dodge, this is the actual driveline (motor?) sound amplified up quite a bit and sent through a kind of "exhaust"/tube thing that resonates this sound through this path. Dodge claims that at full "throttle" it can reach 126dB, similar to a Hellcat at full boil under load.

The interior, thankfully, has a mostly driver-oriented layout without too much touchscreen dominance and some physical buttons for basic things (so it seems).

Dodge muscle cars may not be everyone's cup of tea but I do find their experiment here with giving their cult cars a unique and, according to them, not fake but rather amplified sound, interesting.

....

Amplifying actual EV driveline noise in some way is one of the approaches that I wanted to see any automaker try out and this is a step in the right direction IMO. We love sound in our cars and generally we dislike it when that sound is 100% fake. In this case it's just helped and augmented a bit.

I'm curious to see where this goes and how it pans out in the real world once these cars go into production.

And hopefully they'll keep it a two-door coupe like this concept is.

The only part of this that bothers me a bit is that Dodge seems to be embracing a model where there are only a couple of true variants of the production model (with the 800V "Banshee" at the top) and yet all the stated capabilities that the actual physical hardware on the car can do may be locked behind a "pay to unlock" a-la-carte feature menu or package menu.

And that's getting into the same territory that BMW, Ford, GM, VW and other automakers have been testing the waters with for subscription features that your car is already technically capable of.

It makes me wonder how the auto industry at large might try to use their might to combat aftermarket tuners and coders who could, with a lot of effort, crack a popular car's operating system and unlock or create new features of their own outside of each manufacturer's expensive lump sum or subscription fee walled garden.

Here's hoping the perpetual subscription angle for more power and neat driving modes won't be Dodge's choice in this.

https://www.motor1.com/news/604972/dodge-charger-daytona-srt-concept-ev-debut/

https://www.motor1.com/news/605004/dodge-charger-daytona-exhaust-sound/





(Skip to 1min, 54sec to hear the "idle" but more importantly, the revving)



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VA90

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I like it. I wonder if they know the target demo will never buy it.
 
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KahnBB6

KahnBB6

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I like it. I wonder if they know the target demo will never buy it.
Some people won't ever consider it, true. But then I think there are many others who still like an obnoxious muscle car that has totally different character and appeal than a nearly silent Model S, Lucid Air or other drama-free whisper quiet EVs that aim to be the exact opposite of engaging, driver-centric, quirky and fun.

On a similar note, Lexus seems to be experimenting with a shiftable multi-speed transmission for their EV supercar and I hope they and the GR division also find their own way to offer amplified sound on their enthusiast EVs.
 
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KahnBB6

KahnBB6

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Hmm... so there are really only two different powertrains and the only real "upgrade" would be fully swapping over everything from an 800V Daytona SRT into a 400V Daytona model.... but you're locked out of higher output programming for each of them.

AND Dodge is apparently going to try to kill the 3rd party tuning market while they're at it so that all these tunes that the two drivelines are already capable of will be marked up high priced dealer installed options.

...Because of course they would be.

I love the concept car and that they have an amplified "exhaust" and apparently shiftable electro-mechanical transmission... but this model will definitely be the subject of 3rd party cracking of the programming so that aftermarket tuning can be developed whether Dodge likes it or not.

Dodge is playing on a slippery slope with this walled garden approach.

And yes, it DOES take some skill and relatively new understanding of EV powertrains to safely and effectively tune them without damaging them (or hurting oneself) but 3rd party tinkering and jailbreaking is inevitable.

This will be a very interesting tug of war era we're stepping into between manufacturers, vehicle buyers, 3rd party tuners and hobbyists and also in the U.S. our protected-by-law-you-have-to-buy-through-us official dealers.

If any of this gets to the point of monthly subscriptions for a certain higher than "stock" horsepower level *that your Daytona's driveline hardware as manufactured is already capable of from the factory* then it also wouldn't surprise me if that eventually would be scrutinized at the government level.

Some New Jersey lawmakers are already taking note of this:
https://jalopnik.com/new-jersey-bill-takes-a-soft-stand-against-in-car-subsc-1849681549

https://jalopnik.com/the-dodge-charger-daytona-srt-concept-might-have-turnke-1849728003

https://www.motor1.com/news/619609/dodge-electric-muscle-cars-tuners/

https://www.motor1.com/news/619477/dodge-charger-daytona-srt-stryker-red/
 

XtremeMaC

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Well, I do get where they're coming from. Like everything else, you get what you pay for whether vehicle is already equipped with it or not.
Petty stuff like monthly subscription to seat warmers should be illegal but power ups where there'd not be a true aftermarket power bump option kindda makes sense. Very much like trim levels... They want separation / affordability, I suppose. Also like enabling fwd only vs awd. Or on demand awd..

Monthly/on demand stuff could only make sense if the base price is lowered. As in, if subscribe 6 mo for heater subscription $5/mo over 10 yrs =$300. So like lower price by that. But if you keep subscription 12mo over 20 yr or whatever, 1200.. dunno where sweet selling spot would be.

I dunno where Sirius XM stands on this. That's sat radio service subscription based. Trial for few months.. radio comes equipped with it..

Complicated stuff.. glad I'm no law maker lol.
 
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KahnBB6

KahnBB6

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Well, I do get where they're coming from. Like everything else, you get what you pay for whether vehicle is already equipped with it or not.
Petty stuff like monthly subscription to seat warmers should be illegal but power ups where there'd not be a true aftermarket power bump option kindda makes sense. Very much like trim levels... They want separation / affordability, I suppose. Also like enabling fwd only vs awd. Or on demand awd..

Monthly/on demand stuff could only make sense if the base price is lowered. As in, if subscribe 6 mo for heater subscription $5/mo over 10 yrs =$300. So like lower price by that. But if you keep subscription 12mo over 20 yr or whatever, 1200.. dunno where sweet selling spot would be.

I dunno where Sirius XM stands on this. That's sat radio service subscription based. Trial for few months.. radio comes equipped with it..

Complicated stuff.. glad I'm no law maker lol.

Yes, traditionally you do get what you pay for in terms of physical hardware capabilities and quality.

But if someone buys a 300-400hp Dodge Daytona 400-Volt model that is capable of 700hp+ if programmed to do so... and let's say this person has bought this vehicle outright with no more left on their monthly payments. They own it in the clear now. There is a warranty that this person may want to leave intact so they go with an official Dodge "upgrade" tune for more power.

But let's say the warranty runs out after three years or so. Now this person not only owns their Dodge Daytona but they are also past the manufacturer warranty period.

Now we are in the era of treating software updates to cars in the same manner as operating system updates to personal computers and mobile devices but if this person wants to, what ground does Dodge really have to stand on if they decide to work with a clever 3rd party tuning company that has been developing jailbroken aftermarket programming for these Dodge Daytona EVs?

Further, what if an extremely well versed electronics engineer owner decided to do this with their own car?

Warranty-voiding? Of course, but that's the case with any new gas powered Dodge Charger or Challenger right now.

I don't have clear answers to this either but I do know that Dodge is going to have a hell of a time stopping 3rd party tuners both as companies and individuals from developing programming for these cars outside of the Dodge corporate and Dodge dealer network walled garden.

It won't be nearly as simple as it used to be but it will happen.

...

I agree with you that the truly obvious petty stuff like seat heater functions going into monthly subscriptions (looking at you BMW and Hyundai) but once we get into that arena little of it makes sense to tolerate... unless it has to do with constantly updated and constantly online connected services that by the nature of what they are *cannot* work in a totally offline fashion such as up-to-date GPS navigation service, roadside assistance service at the touch of a button like OnStar, semi-self-driving features, etc.

But if Dodge pushes any of these power upgrades in their walled garden into a monthly subscription fee for power levels that are available until you cancel your subscription to that "option" thus reverting your once 700hp Daytona down to a 300hp base model Daytona.... that's not a very good proposition for the customer and owner.

Also bad would be an approach like Tesla's where the enabling of higher power tune options are locked to your *Dodge User Account* rather than to the Dodge Daytona EV's VIN/ECU(s). That could potentially mean that when you sell your Daytona on the used market the 700hp+ tune you optioned for several thousand dollars at your dealer suddenly vanishes as the physical car is reverted and reset back to the "default" base horsepower.

That would make lots of money for Dodge and dealers but would totally obliterate the concept of what value you are actually getting for your money.

There will in reality only be two or three actual hardware variants of this vehicle.

Other than additional physical modification options that can be installed, in a worst case scenario where higher power programming never stays with the vehicle once it is sold or once a subscription fee is cancelled should effectively render those options value-less on the open market.

The true market value post original sale for these things will then really just be down whichever of the 2-3 physical hardware variants of the Daytona someone owns and what physical condition it is in.

Again... IF Dodge takes the above hypothetical approach ^^

I know that the business model approach that they and other companies are planning is an inevitable thing we'll be facing but so will be the consumer pushback to it.

This will be interesting to say the least. Hopefully it all won't be an extremely frustrating experience for people who like to modify their own way.

And certainly there will be owners for whom the many extensive walled garden tunes that Dodge offers will be all they really want to mess with anyway.
 

XtremeMaC

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I honestly and unfortunately think that many ICE jobs and aftermarket EV, etc, support will diminish quite rapidly.
I mean look at locked Supra options. You run out of <2020 ECU and it's done. You'll then be looking at blackmarket stolen ecus or some shit. With AI and cyber security taking over everything, we'll only end up with cosmetic mods and be limited to subscription options of OEM or licensed 3rd party..

Your comments made me think of car ownership and the pitched car share or short term leases. There may be new clauses in the future that captures details after running out of warranty or even resale of the vehicle. Like initial vehicle was cheapest option but upon resale can new owner enable full power. With worn powertrain will it give full power or at discounted rate... Also to consider state of battery...
So maybe people will rent new EVs like mopeds for few hours. Leave them on the streets wherever.
With that perhaps once you rent you'll open your phone or plugin a usb with your predefined config, pay and get the power level you pay for... Same for buying...
And perhaps instead of legitimate tuner options it'll be black market tune possibly swapping out some hardware components like early PlayStations or expensive complete control modules kindda like AEM etc... But that really depends on how much all components will be locked. Like you have main ECU but also BMS, etc. all will communicate thru secure channels. A complete new solution may require controlling of all... Shit's complicated with electronics..
I don't see the problem with locking license to the person rather than the vehicle. The resale classification at that point will be rewritten. As in x miles, y wear on motor, z wear on battery, j voltage rating, k cosmetic wear/tear = $t
Anyhow, long live ICE :oops:
 
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KahnBB6

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I honestly and unfortunately think that many ICE jobs and aftermarket EV, etc, support will diminish quite rapidly.
There is already a lot of workforce downsizing happening as the transition to electric vehicles grows on the OEM side of things so that is going to continue going forward.

However people will still own these things and since it's a transition that everyone has to make I do think 3rd party aftermarket support in some ways will still continue. The aftermarket will probably shrink and become much more specialized but I don't think it will go away. Though it might increasingly go underground and in some cases in the future may be at odds with the OEMs and dealers trying to control their new walled garden business models.

I'm of the mind that the increased investment in cyber security for automobile driveline and control systems is far more rooted in fear on the part of OEM manufacturers and their protected-by-law dealer networks that with less overall complexity to their vehicles and less to go wrong on average they would not make as much money as they do now without finding new ways to totally lock out owners, independent shops and tuners from doing anything that they themselves could charge premium fees for.

All of which I find disgusting. Increasingly it mirrors Apple-like and Tesla-like treatment of the owners.

With a cellphone, which is technically very advanced but is at the end of the day a very simple and narrow-use utility appliance, I don't mind Apple's walled garden OS and 3rd party software ecosystem for it. It's a phone with some other functions and capabilities... but it's not an emotional object that I own.

With Apple's desktop and laptop computers (and those of other brands) I feel differently and have come to greatly dislike the increasing lack of options to be able to customize or even do any upgrades at all with their latest models... outside of the $6,000USD+ Mac Pro workstation which itself still has a lot of specific upgrade limitations.

With a car, which IS a very emotional thing to choose and own, there is an entirely different thinking behind its ownership on the part of the buyer and customizing is a pretty normalized thing to expect.

I mean look at locked Supra options. You run out of <2020 ECU and it's done. You'll then be looking at blackmarket stolen ecus or some shit. With AI and cyber security taking over everything, we'll only end up with cosmetic mods and be limited to subscription options of OEM or licensed 3rd party..
I've been monitoring the tuning options for Supra MKVs and what you say might be the case. BMW has really screwed people with their ECUs even if all they want is just a mild bump in horsepower over factory stock.

Standalone aftermarket ECUs seem to be the reasonable alternative. Swap back and forth between the stock ECU and aftermarket ECU.

I foresee a similar trend for EVs on the horizon.

Your comments made me think of car ownership and the pitched car share or short term leases. There may be new clauses in the future that captures details after running out of warranty or even resale of the vehicle.
This perpetual feedback loop of user drive data and account data to the manufacturer is something I feel should not be just accepted with a shrug. But not accepting it does mean modifying the stock electronics.

Like initial vehicle was cheapest option but upon resale can new owner enable full power.
Yes, this is what it seems to be coming to. But that doesn't mean it's right. That means that effectively the true value of a future electric vehicle is only in the raw hardware specs that it was manufactured with (hence Dodge's two major actual variants for their Daytona EV: the 400V version and the 800V version. And maybe also between RWD and AWD variants of 400V and 800V versions too).

This is what I was getting at when I suggested that it *could* be the case wherein you can spend thousands on their Dodge Direct Connection high horsepower upgrades... but as soon as you sell the car it might become "reset" so that the next owner would have to pay those thousands all over again out of their own wallets to program the car the same way so as to "unlock" the very features and power it is already capable of in stock form.

That would be money down the drain for any owner be they well off or just barely able to afford the base model.

Insult to injury even moreso when Dodge (and their lawyers assuredly) would attempt to legally kill off 3rd party aftermarket tunes or jailbreaking options. Or wipe out such options with OTA update patches just the same way that Apple and Tesla have done in the past.

Not good and not something to just passively accept even though we'll all be owning something 100% electric sooner or later.

With worn powertrain will it give full power or at discounted rate... Also to consider state of battery...
So maybe people will rent new EVs like mopeds for few hours. Leave them on the streets wherever.
With current battery pack technology, used electric vehicles depending on the cycle count wear and age on the batteries are certainly going to be weighted with some discounts. And OEMs rarely want to resurrect a slightly worn or problematic pack.

But independent EV hobbyists and independent EV repair shops already do this (battery pack rebuilding/resurrection to replace individual dead cells).

A fully worn out pack that is old would be a different case.

Car rentals are another thing entirely. I don't expect to have any control there or even to have the ideal vehicle that meets my preferences.

I can see people renting electric cars as we do today with gas cars and EVs, perhaps through dealers as we can right now in addition to or in replacement of the stalwart Avis, Enterprize, Hertz, etc. rental chains.... but there will always be people who want to own a particular model for a long time and/or then customize it a bit.


With that perhaps once you rent you'll open your phone or plugin a usb with your predefined config, pay and get the power level you pay for... Same for buying...
For a car purchase... I fully expect permanent vehicle setting changes both in hardware and powertrain control that do not get overwritten or disabled by the OEM at random.

It doesn't matter to me if this involves the cheapest economy model or an expensive enthusiast sportscar. I realize that this concept of ownership is being challenged right now but... if I pay for it in full and legally own the title.... it's mine despite who manufactured it. And thus it's mine to do with as I see fit.

Manufacturers increasingly do not see it that way and liken cars to cellphones and how they are updated and replaced. But again... cars are HIGHLY emotional ownership purchases and ownership experiences. Once EVs become more mainstream I won't be the only one who'll be saying something along these lines as an owner.

The nature of tuning WILL forever be different with EVs. That is very true due to the nature of how they work. But which side ultimately wins control of WHO can tune an electric vehicle hasn't played out yet.


And perhaps instead of legitimate tuner options it'll be black market tune possibly swapping out some hardware components like early PlayStations or expensive complete control modules kindda like AEM etc... But that really depends on how much all components will be locked. Like you have main ECU but also BMS, etc. all will communicate thru secure channels. A complete new solution may require controlling of all... Shit's complicated with electronics..
This is more than likely where some of this will go. And its why I've been trying to learn from the EV conversion hobbyist community as they mix and match different OEM components, custom reprogram and even replace their main logic boards with open source programmable boards that they have designed for people to get made themselves to do the same things.

AEM is so far doing well with this and it won't stop with them.

This all will certainly void warranties or be a thing when the warranties run out. But since EVs do not produce emissions themselves as a result of being configured differently this pretty much throws the entire "street legal" emissions based restrictions right out the window and only leaves OEM manufacturer desire for full locked down control as the only remaining barriers.

Sometimes the OEM walled garden upgrades covered by a normal warranty will be enough for some people but there will always be some who want to just do it their own way simply because they can and because it's unique. And perhaps also increasingly because it isn't something that can be erased or nerfed by the original manufacturer with an OTA update.

....

To me the still greatest differentiators of the Dodge Daytona EV as presented in concept form are the amplified driveline "exhaust" system and the claimed electro-mechanical shifting system (transmission?). Both of these things are fun, provide direct feedback to the driver and an experience that an average quiet single-gear EV does not.

The hosepower tuning options, be they from Dodge officially or worked in with unofficial modifications and software, are second to those things.

But even so I still do not feel a shrug of acceptance to locking the consumer out the way Apple and Tesla do should be our collective response.

The changes to driveline technology are inevitable and their own set of challenges and realities. But what we're really talking about here is a tug of war between who ultimately gets to control a very expensive vehicle that you buy and own the title of.

Again, since 100% EVs don't add emissions to the atmosphere with any kind of modifications that can no longer be an argument as to why people shouldn't go outside of the boundaries the manufacturer sets.

Tuning an EV very stupidly can break various components of course. That would be on anyone who chooses to do so without understanding what they are doing. But assuming they do or just plug in 3rd party or open source replacement electronics... it's their car if they own the title for it in the clear.

Realize please that sometimes someone may not even care to go to such extremes. I may not always want to myself. But there should always be the option to do so *should* someone wish to go to such extremes with their enthusiast car.

I don't see the problem with locking license to the person rather than the vehicle. The resale classification at that point will be rewritten. As in x miles, y wear on motor, z wear on battery, j voltage rating, k cosmetic wear/tear = $t
Anyhow, long live ICE :oops:
I completely disagree here.

We do this with cellphones and user accounts and computers because that all has to do with personal preferences for software. Although in some cases if you leave software installed on a cellphone or conventional computer that software SHOULD continue to work so long as you have provided the exclusive license key with it to the buyer (on a desktop/laptop). At least that's how it worked for decades with personal computers until very recently.

We don't upgrade cellphones for more processor speed even if that was an early thing with jailbroken iphones. We just use the phone appliance communications device with our own user data and chosen software... as phone appliance communication devices.

But at least with desktop and workstation conventional personal computers you definitely do upgrade their graphics cards, CPUs, memory and capabilities with expansion slot cards. Those are permanent changes to the systems independent of the operating systems.

With an automobile though... especially some aspirational fun enthusiast thing like a Toyota GR Supra (assume it's a next generation one that is electrified in some way) or Nissan Z (assume the same for the sake of argument)... when you make changes that fundamentally augment the power output, handling, braking, diff or torque vectoring control, etc. you expect all of those changes to stay with the car. It's part of what makes one car unique from another when both started out as the same stock model.

Vehicles are emotional things. Or at least some of them are. Reducing the experience of modifying them down the equivalent of a cellphone tied to a user account that is incapable of ever having permanently modified features reduces their value and appeal overall.

Then it just becomes a competition of gimmick features that expire the moment your user account is separated from the vehicle in question.

I'm sure this is all making OEM manufacturers (and their dealers) salivate at the mouth at the prospect of repeat revenue for the same expensive features (additionally marked up at the dealers in some cases) from one vehicle owner and "user" to the next... but it isn't sounding that great to the buyers themselves.

I do sincerely hope that I am going much too far into devil's advocate territory regarding all of this but I'm not so sure that I am.
 

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I completely disagree here.

We do this with cellphones and user accounts and computers because that all has to do with personal preferences for software. Although in some cases if you leave software installed on a cellphone or conventional computer that software SHOULD continue to work so long as you have provided the exclusive license key with it to the buyer (on a desktop/laptop). At least that's how it worked for decades with personal computers until very recently.
Right, that's why I said resale value factors would probably change and be based on vehicle hardware level and wear/tear. Still the resale may be problematic because you had 700hp version installed with HW that supports 1000hp. Guy buys it from you at 700hp used price. Buys upgrade package to 1000hp. You've undervalued/sold your car in doing so...
Well, I don't know. Even on ICE, you buy Supra at 335hp but $1000 ECU tune later it's 435hp...

But, it's not a matter of my personal opinion, it unfortunately is what makes sense if they're going to employ upgrades OTA.
But it's soon to tell.
I've heard modular concepts, plug n play upgrades, etc. as well.
Who knows maybe company A will do PnP, B will OTA. Or mixed.. But PnP is more complicated like Android vs iOS as in Android can be installed on many HW thus compatibility, accessories, etc. is limited. Support and availability goes down as new models come out, but for Apple, Belkin stuff that worked on iPhone 1 works on 13 or something. So, the envelope OEM works with for swappable upgrades should be relatively easily accessible and more so need to be supported long term per vehicle model for it to make sense..
I think OEMs and lawmakers should read this thread and see how complicated it is and shall just stop enforcing EVs altogether. Fund more ICE research. @Elon what happened to McLaren love. Give your monies to ICE R&D. :thumbsup:
 
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KahnBB6

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Right, that's why I said resale value factors would probably change and be based on vehicle hardware level and wear/tear. Still the resale may be problematic because you had 700hp version installed with HW that supports 1000hp. Guy buys it from you at 700hp used price. Buys upgrade package to 1000hp. You've undervalued/sold your car in doing so...
Well, I don't know. Even on ICE, you buy Supra at 335hp but $1000 ECU tune later it's 435hp...

But, it's not a matter of my personal opinion, it unfortunately is what makes sense if they're going to employ upgrades OTA.
But it's soon to tell.
I've heard modular concepts, plug n play upgrades, etc. as well.
Who knows maybe company A will do PnP, B will OTA. Or mixed.. But PnP is more complicated like Android vs iOS as in Android can be installed on many HW thus compatibility, accessories, etc. is limited. Support and availability goes down as new models come out, but for Apple, Belkin stuff that worked on iPhone 1 works on 13 or something. So, the envelope OEM works with for swappable upgrades should be relatively easily accessible and more so need to be supported long term per vehicle model for it to make sense..
I think OEMs and lawmakers should read this thread and see how complicated it is and shall just stop enforcing EVs altogether. Fund more ICE research. @Elon what happened to McLaren love. Give your monies to ICE R&D. :thumbsup:
You may ultimately be right. Still, do we really attribute a real world value based on a (for example) 1,000hp or higher HP Dodge Daytona EV that in stock form is only putting out half that number until you flip out your credit card and pay Dodge $6,000 or far more (arbitrary and made up figure) for the privilege of "unlocking" it that way?

A power figure and investment which still *might* disappear and revert back to "default" the moment the title changes hands?

The OTA update ecosystem that each automaker is developing is indeed complicated and even if/when custom cracking and logic board replacement within the vehicle systems happens it will definitely become far more niche than it will be now.

The push into EVs isn't going to stop. It's a given at this point whether it involved full battery electrics or hydrogen fuel cell electrics. Hydrogen ICE, inefficient as it is, still holds some promise for niche applications and some industrial applications but Dodge doesn't appear to be on that bandwagon. Nor do they even have any solid state battery tech at their fingertips in R&D (yet).

We've still got some pure ICE and hybrid electric gas ICE vehicles coming out over the immediate next few years but the entire industry is in transition to electric at this point other than really limited niche stuff.

Also ICE vehicles won't all immediately leave the roads as soon as brand new ones can't legally be sold any longer. But EVs will be mixed in on the roads everywhere by then more than is the case today.

That's why I felt this discussion is important. It's not so much about the potential of evolving electric driveline technology but about *how* it's implemented so as to be fun and engaging (the opposite of a Tesla) and where the balance of power rests for control of it between manufacturers and vehicle buyers/owners as to how they can modify or even just service their own cars that they legally own.

And... whether or not expensive software upgrade options to one of these vehicles will ever be permanent to that VIN once added or if it expires upon resale of the vehicle in order to print free money for Dodge and their dealers.

Many questions and hypotheticals with no clear answers so far. But I think it's good to talk about since the OEMs are *definitely* talking about all the possibilities they could pursue regardless of whether all of those possibilities are truly right to enforce on buyers/owners or not... and the potential lengths to which some with great skills may go to in order to circumvent what may turn out to be a very disagreeable system in the context of special automobiles.


This thread is making my head hurt 🙃
That truly hasn't been my intention with this thread, sorry. I just feel it's best to be as informed as we all can be on the ramifications of this broader topic beyond just what Dodge is doing with a single model and their overall business model for it as relates to how people who actually buy and own it will deal with said new business model.
 
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KahnBB6

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Well, here's one more answer. The "unlock" programming that you'll pay for will be tied to each Daytona's VIN and will therefore be transferrable with each car they are added to, confirms Dodge CEO. So there is that.

https://www.carscoops.com/2022/11/d...-out-of-ev-modding-market/#Echobox=1667275956

Dodge Will Lock Third-Party Tuners Out Of EV-Modding Market

Dodge plans to make its dealers the first and last stop for owners wanting to modify future EV performance cars by closing the door to third-party tuners, much like Ford has done with the new 2024 Mustang.

Although the aftermarket will still be able to supply chassis and styling upgrades for cars like the production version of the Charger Daytona SRT Concept, Dodge is working to prevent them modifying the electric powertrains.

“We don’t want to lock the cars and say you can’t modify them,” Dodge CEO Tim Kuniskis told Carscoops. “We just want to lock them and say modify them through us so that we know it’s done right.”

So it’s just as well that Dodge is planning to offer a stack of power, styling and handling modifications through its Direct Connection program that are likely to give the hottest version of its 2024 electric muscle car more than 1,000 hp (1,104 PS).

But Kuniskis also explained a surprising motivation behind the decision to ramp up the availability of dealer-supplied tuning packages. He said he was aware that dealers stood to lose revenue in the electric era because EVs require less maintenance, and that by offering sanctioned tuning parts dealers would have a chance to replace any lost income.

Dodge has revealed more details on the upcoming production version of the Charger Daytona SRT Concept, saying that the car could have three base power options starting at 455 hp (340 kW / 461 PS), and that each of those could be modified with eStage 1 and eStage 2 upgrades. The additional eStage power is only accessible when a Bugatti Speed Key-like “crystal” is inserted into the dashboard.

Power Upgrades Tied To The Vin And Will Be Transferable

Kuniskis conceded that third-party tuners would inevitably try to hack the electrical system to perform their own power upgrades, but claimed that the crystals, which are tied to a car’s VIN, would help Dodge dealers become the go-to destination for upgrades that don’t only add power, but potentially, value as well. Those EV performance mods could, of course, only add value if they were transferred with the car to the next owner, and Kuniskis confirmed that would be the case.
 

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Toyota announced this week it would no longer be making electronic keys due to chip shortages. Other car makers are waiting on the midterm elections before becoming fully committed to further dependence on other countries for battery mining and electronics. Please go out and vote if you live in the States! It’s more important now to keep the USA market driven. We’ve always been good at adapting. Europe and others are looking at worse shortage because of a “forced” hand.

I’m for all new technologies - as long as they are consumer driven. Led by peeps like you and not those elected who haven’t driven a car nor need one, not in the market or industry, and don’t have a clue about automobile end users, only lobbyist and earmark agendas. Can you tell I voted early?✌ 😂
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