Several HPDEs in, looking into mild track upgrades

[decodeddiesel]

I get the feel aspect. A flat car was feels better and more responsive.
My experience has been that sometimes a flatter car results in unless grip. Instead of letting the car be compliant and hunker down, I may find the car skipping across bumps or otherwise putting too much stress on the tires.
I 100% noticed faster tire wear, but I don't mind that as long as it means the cars working better.
So, I was just wondering the reasoning behind the sway bars. Just wondering if it was a case of throwing them on because it seemed like the right thing to do or if there was some math/lap times behind it.
I have never, ever thrown a part on my car unless I can confirm it was going to make it better. That's why I ask so many questions.

I don't have any lap times to back up my decision to add sway bars to my car. What I did consider was several expert opinions both on and off of the forum, as well as photographic evidence that showed my car has significant body roll. The Cusco sway bars are a very mild upgrade and I'm happy with them. It's common knowledge that OEMs set-up cars to understeer at the limit and sway bars are a common fix.

I have certainly made the mistake of going overboard with sway bars and stiffer springs in the past (my STi when I upgraded to KW Clubsports for Auto-X), but the Supra doesn't feel anything like that.

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[noogie]

Did you actually read the thread, or did you see it pop up on the front page and decide to offer your $0.02 without bothering to look at the context of what's being discussed?

you said:

This year I would like to make some modifications to my car to improve track performance and move to 200tw tires. I am still very much a novice, but I am interested in getting better. I would like to keep the costs below $10k. I will be doing all of the work myself.

to me it sounds like you want to become a better driver. so i'll ask, are you in the top 20% of your local autocross events in your class? throwing more parts at your car isn't going to make you a better driver.

 

[decodeddiesel]

to me it sounds like you want to become a better driver. so i'll ask, are you in the top 20% of your local autocross events in your class? throwing more parts at your car isn't going to make you a better driver.

Here we fucking go. ?

So by your logic until I reach the top 20% of drivers in SCCA AutoX I shouldn't modify or drive my car on track? Okay sport. Following this logic I should sell my Supra and buy a bone stock ND, which I have absolutely zero interest in doing.

Been there, done that, have the T-shirt with AutoX. Not interested at all. But since you asked, yes I was competitive when I was autocrossing 5-10 years ago. While some of the fundamentals do cross over, track driving and autoX are not the same, at all. Frankly I much prefer 2+ hours of seat time vs 6 minutes if I'm lucky preceded/followed by 4 hours of boredom or chasing cones like an idiot.

I did the mods I did because I've already done several TRACK DAYS and discovered the tires and brakes suck. The mods I have done were done specifically so I could upgrade the suspension system so I can actually use 200 tw tires effectively on track, and be able to drive for 25-30 minutes at speed without serious degradation in performance. This includes brake mods, the ability to add negative camber, and sway bars. That's literally all I've done to the car at this point.

I know damn well that "throwing parts at a car won't make me faster", but I really appreciate you being pedantic about it. I am literally spending 3X more on seat time than I am mods this year.

So no. You didn't read the thread.

My goal is to have fun with my car in a safe environment and eventually move up to more advanced run groups and discover new tracks. I couldn't give less of a fuck about going fast in 2nd gear in a parking lot at this point.

 

[Eyelise]

the more performance mods you add, the harder it'll be to learn/diagnose the car.

if your goal is to become a better driver, i'd just do RS4 tires and an alignment. the ceiling of this car is so high that most people won't be able to extract the car's full potential.

spend your money on seat time.

if you like modding and tinkering, then ignore my previous comments.

general framework when modding: ask yourself what you're trying to fix about the car. that will dictate what parts to get.

Thanks I agree just booked three sessions with an instructor. I noted a bit more body roll than I am used to performance driving which is why I'll add the FSB. I also love to wrench (I have a hydraulic lift in my garage) and I understand the FSB is pretty quick and easy. What I dont have is a lot of free time these days.

 

[Eyelise]

I get the feel aspect. A flat car was feels better and more responsive.
My experience has been that sometimes a flatter car results in unless grip. Instead of letting the car be compliant and hunker down, I may find the car skipping across bumps or otherwise putting too much stress on the tires.
I 100% noticed faster tire wear, but I don't mind that as long as it means the cars working better.
So, I was just wondering the reasoning behind the sway bars. Just wondering if it was a case of throwing them on because it seemed like the right thing to do or if there was some math/lap times behind it.
I have never, ever thrown a part on my car unless I can confirm it was going to make it better. That's why I ask so many questions.

I was always remember hearing in the past Europeans use spring rates to achieve what Americans do with sway bars. I understand the reasoning here as I, like a typical American, don't want a really tightly sprung vehicle for my daily. So I guess it will be sway bars for me.

 

[Eyelise]

I got my set from Jackie Ding at PhD Racing, but it's a common part.

Weird I couldn't find it on the PHD.store site. Only the aFE and Eibach

 

[decodeddiesel]

Weird I couldn't find it on the PHD.store site. Only the aFE and Eibach

Huh, that's weird. I guess Jackie decided not to carry them anymore.

 

[Eyelise]

Eibach only makes one kit for the GR Supra right?

 

[decodeddiesel]

Eibach only makes one kit for the GR Supra right?

Sway bars or springs? They make one sway bar set and two different types of springs, although they say one set is for the Z4.

 

[FLtrackdays]

the more performance mods you add, the harder it'll be to learn/diagnose the car.

if your goal is to become a better driver, i'd just do RS4 tires and an alignment. the ceiling of this car is so high that most people won't be able to extract the car's full potential.

spend your money on seat time.

if you like modding and tinkering, then ignore my previous comments.

general framework when modding: ask yourself what you're trying to fix about the car. that will dictate what parts to get.

I get what you’re saying. Usually it takes more to get that kind of tactile feeling with a car in this price range and with govt regulations. This Supra was a surprise for sure. However I have no regrets. She feels way more buttoned down with my SPL parts. I can feel every pebble, lol. It’s way noisier, my brakes squeal, I have tons of dust and I sometimes have to fight the computer to tell it the far from spec alignment is okay.

My 1st track car, RX8, I had to beg the race team to do stuff. I wanted to go faster dammit! They told me I had to buy a seat 1st. Then more seat time. They pushed for private instruction. I initially thought it was a scam. Until the higher up track peeps told me I was lucky those guys were even talking to me ?. Kid you not. Weird story but for another day…. I’ll be damned, I got so much quicker with their instruction than I did with all the mods I ”wanted” to dump $$$ into the car.

So I think that’s what you were referring to. I did the pro instruction thing for my wife and people were shocked how quickly she learned to heel and toe & scoot around Sebring so quickly. It also helped me to see them get into any car and be faster than the average track rat ? with millions of mods.

But for what Wes is doing, I think he’s spot on. Not doing too much, taking his time (like you’re saying) and unlike me, he’s got the knowledge to correct things that can go awry.

The only wrong thing would be not tracking this car at all. She’s fantastic!

 

[Eyelise]

Sway bars or springs? They make one sway bar set and two different types of springs, although they say one set is for the Z4.

got it thanks

 

[Rocksandblues]

I will add something possibly controversial...

The Supra is the WRONG car to learn racing/tracking. It is too fast and has too much torque. In a e46,miata,frs if you blow a corner you lose so much momentum it is really obvious and MAKES you concentrate on Track craft, braking, apexes, momentum, etc.

If you blow a corner in the Supra you just mash the Go peddle. There is no feedback

I instructed a Supra kid couple weeks ago. The program sends out your email and the kid was all: i requested you, i see your videos, im excited, bla bla. it was nice. Day of event- he had never been on a track- and he is talking about getting sponsors, doing TT, and warning bells are going off.
Nice kid- really- but his driving was crap, he tried bullying the track with horsepower and ended up spinning off track even with all the nannies on. you can hear me in his video "brake brake brake!" He just got cocky and thought after 2 sessions he was a race car driver.

The other thing i want to support is just because you made it to SOLO status keep getting instructed periodically. You are solo because we think you can race around safely, not because you are ready for competition. While instructing i see so many green solo guys who are safe, but the lines and laps are crap. you don't know what you don't know and you can have a ton of seat time without being able to actually learn anything and get better.

 

[Kmj442]

I will add something possibly controversial...

The Supra is the WRONG car to learn racing/tracking. It is too fast and has too much torque. In a e46,miata,frs if you blow a corner you lose so much momentum it is really obvious and MAKES you concentrate on Track craft, braking, apexes, momentum, etc.

If you blow a corner in the Supra you just mash the Go peddle. There is no feedback

I instructed a Supra kid couple weeks ago. The program sends out your email and the kid was all: i requested you, i see your videos, im excited, bla bla. it was nice. Day of event- he had never been on a track- and he is talking about getting sponsors, doing TT, and warning bells are going off.
Nice kid- really- but his driving was crap, he tried bullying the track with horsepower and ended up spinning off track even with all the nannies on. you can hear me in his video "brake brake brake!" He just got cocky and thought after 2 sessions he was a race car driver.

The other thing i want to support is just because you made it to SOLO status keep getting instructed periodically. You are solo because we think you can race around safely, not because you are ready for competition. While instructing i see so many green solo guys who are safe, but the lines and laps are crap. you don't know what you don't know and you can have a ton of seat time without being able to actually learn anything and get better.

As a novice (2 track days) I said this exact thing to my HPDE 1 instructor a couple weeks ago when I was there. I have a jb4 and it was disabled all day, I even asked if we could do one session at like 80% just to work on lines, turn in/exit and corner speeds. I'm all for going all out (and only had to give 1 point by all day, my instructor was impressed by that since there were a couple other supras out there) but I also really liked working with him on some of the slower stuff. We can all mash the gas on the straight but getting the turn in perfect on turn 1 after that is the real stuff to work on.

 

[razorlab]

I will add something possibly controversial...

The Supra is the WRONG car to learn racing/tracking. It is too fast and has too much torque. In a e46,miata,frs if you blow a corner you lose so much momentum it is really obvious and MAKES you concentrate on Track craft, braking, apexes, momentum, etc.

If you blow a corner in the Supra you just mash the Go peddle. There is no feedback

I instructed a Supra kid couple weeks ago. The program sends out your email and the kid was all: i requested you, i see your videos, im excited, bla bla. it was nice. Day of event- he had never been on a track- and he is talking about getting sponsors, doing TT, and warning bells are going off.
Nice kid- really- but his driving was crap, he tried bullying the track with horsepower and ended up spinning off track even with all the nannies on. you can hear me in his video "brake brake brake!" He just got cocky and thought after 2 sessions he was a race car driver.

The other thing i want to support is just because you made it to SOLO status keep getting instructed periodically. You are solo because we think you can race around safely, not because you are ready for competition. While instructing i see so many green solo guys who are safe, but the lines and laps are crap. you don't know what you don't know and you can have a ton of seat time without being able to actually learn anything and get better.

5,000% agree here. In my instructing days 80% of my students would be like this. I stopped instructing because I realized putting my life into the hands of some arrogant rando wasn't worth the free track days that I couldn't even enjoy because I was busy instructing.

Fun fact: When I started tracking the Supra, it was my first RWD car that I was tracking. Even with 15+ years of track experience, I SELF SELECTED myself back down to novice group so I could take my time learning the car without the heat of the advanced groups pace. I quickly brought myself back up through the ranks and back into the advance group. It was very helpful for me to do that. It also made me feel like I earned everything again so it was satisfying for me.

It also reminded me that the intermediate group is BY FAR the most dangerous group to be in at track events. I very quickly got myself out of that group. It's basically everything you said but 200% more crazy. People know enough to think they are kings, but don't know enough when things go wrong. Also, 90% of the people are ego driven and never give point-bys.

 

[Rocksandblues]

5,000% agree here. In my instructing days 80% of my students would be like this. I stopped instructing because I realized putting my life into the hands of some arrogant rando wasn't worth the free track days that I couldn't even enjoy because I was busy instructing.

Fun fact: When I started tracking the Supra, it was my first RWD car that I was tracking. Even with 15+ years of track experience, I SELF SELECTED myself back down to novice group so I could take my time learning the car without the heat of the advanced groups pace. I quickly brought myself back up through the ranks and back into the advance group. It was very helpful for me to do that. It also made me feel like I earned everything again so it was satisfying for me.

It also was reminded that the intermediate group is BY FAR the most dangerous group to be in at track events. I very quickly got myself out of that group.

Man you are so right about the blue group! We should/can start a "tales from instructor land" thread. But last HPDE, Head instructor pulled the ENTIRE blue group in for a talk. We focus on education and improvement- and their lines and passing were absolute dog crap.

Also been really questioning the SCCA track nights- they send any green out solo. Program does not have instructors????
last week at our track guy totaled a Viper. He was green and hit a curb in the esses with a high hp car with no skill to handle it out of sorts. Lucky he wasn't killed. Destroyed a 20' section of guardrail, engine was ripped free of chassis.

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