JB4 and Partial unlock questions

[AndyK5]

I tried to search the forums and google as much as I can, I have also contacted burgertuning support and they were helpful but still have some questions.

JB4:
I don't want to resurrect a dead thread which is why I did not reply there but on this thread: https://www.supramkv.com/threads/jb4-for-noobs-beginners.15117/
@kaj states that 100hp gain for JB4 is misleading. I have looked at the dyno sheets here: https://burgertuning.com/collection...mance-parts/products/jb4-for-a90-toyota-supra and the first sheet seems to show a low output Supra gaining ~90whp with DP, Intake and JB4. Second one shows a high output supra (z4) gaining 34whp with JB4 only, and third one shows high output supra gaining 90whp on E40 Map5, I assume it has other mods as well.

- How much power does JB4 add to the mix by itself for a high output B58? According to the graphs above it is about 35hp?
- Does JB4 enhance what the mods give you, as in catted DP is lets say 10hp on its own and 30hp with JB4? This would mean more mods you have the more JB4 is worth it?
- Custom tuning...when is it worth it? Even for a base car or when you have a lot of mods?
- Why are some people putting the car in base map when tracking? experiencing limp mode, cutoff etc..? On my last trackday my friends JB4+catless DP 23' Supra ran fine (2.01 at Buttonwillow) all day at 90F weather. Can the issues be resolved with custom tuning? Is the fuel starvation below half a tank a JB4 at the track issue or stock cars as well?
- Is there a manual vs auto difference when it comes maps etc.? EDIT: Just saw this on the 1fastsupra website
** PLEASE NOTE MT CARS HAVE ISSUES WITH JB4 AND CUSTOM MAPPINGS. AT THIS TIME WE WILL NOT BE DOING ANYMORE MT CARS **


Partial unlock:

- For 91 Octane use only, can partial unlock provide a more powerful tune? Or would it be more track friendly than JB4?
- When 2023 ECU is cloned to 2020 and swapped on the vehicle...lets say 6 months later, if the 2023 ECU is plugged back in to the car, will it lose its mind? As according to the 2023 ECU, mileage/engine hours (whatever the dash records) on the chassis does not match the numbers in its own memory (if its keeping track).
- Are there known partial unlocked manuals driving around?

Sponsored

 

[kaj]

My take where I think I may be able to lend a bit of insight:

I tried to search the forums and google as much as I can, I have also contacted burgertuning support and they were helpful but still have some questions.

JB4:
I don't want to resurrect a dead thread which is why I did not reply there but on this thread: https://www.supramkv.com/threads/jb4-for-noobs-beginners.15117/
@kaj states that 100hp gain for JB4 is misleading. I have looked at the dyno sheets here: https://burgertuning.com/collection...mance-parts/products/jb4-for-a90-toyota-supra and the first sheet seems to show a low output Supra gaining ~90whp with DP, Intake and JB4. Second one shows a high output supra (z4) gaining 34whp with JB4 only, and third one shows high output supra gaining 90whp on E40 Map5, I assume it has other mods as well.

What is "high output" and "low output"?

- How much power does JB4 add to the mix by itself for a high output B58? According to the graphs above it is about 35hp?
- Does JB4 enhance what the mods give you, as in catted DP is lets say 10hp on its own and 30hp with JB4? This would mean more mods you have the more JB4 is worth it?

Depends. In general, any higher-performance part is going to make a tune more useful and allow it to make more power. Parts themselves don't make much, if any noticeable difference. That's mostly due to the fact that OEM ECUs like to keep the car within certain parameter's, no matter what we do. I.E. the 2003 Evo did not respond to manual boost controllers because the ECU and boost solenoid fought to put boost back to spec. Sometimes aftermarket parts may hurt performance on an untuned car.
But, if you change those parameters to "accept" the aftermaket parts, then THAT is where you will see a result worth the time and money.
So... having more mods is great for bragging rights but won't really do much until the car is tuned. You are more or less on the right track with your post.

- Custom tuning...when is it worth it? Even for a base car or when you have a lot of mods?

ALWAYS. *Most* cars will see power gains and, more importantly, drivability improvements with a tun. ALWAYS worth it. My disclaimer to "always" LOL: *Some* cars are more or less at limit on stock parts so results may vary. Will an A90 be night and day difference with just a tune? Hopefully someone here can answer.

- Why are some people putting the car in base map when tracking? experiencing limp mode, cutoff etc..? On my last trackday my friends JB4+catless DP 23' Supra ran fine (2.01 at Buttonwillow) all day at 90F weather. Can the issues be resolved with custom tuning? Is the fuel starvation below half a tank a JB4 at the track issue or stock cars as well?

I was there. Who was your friend? First... JB4 and other piggybacks do nothing other than fool sensors. The car isn't reading parameters accurately. There is years of history of cars dying by being driven too hard on piggyback stuff. It's not a real tune. 99% of us who have been doing this for any length of time will never, ever, ever trust an OTS or piggyback for track duties. We do NOT fuck with that stuff. Boosted cars being run hard, for long periods of time this way, are a potential, expensive accident waiting to happen. Not to say someone couldn't do it and just happen to have nothing happen. Most of won't risk it. Especially for a nominal change in lap times.
Also, 2:01 at BWRP is okay but not that great. He could run the same lap time on a stock map and pump gas. I ran that exact time, doing the course CCW (slower than 13CW) and I had to lift for an emergency vehicle. I'd suggest your friend not run a JB4 map on course. Just the opinion of some guy on the internet, of course.

- Is there a manual vs auto difference when it comes maps etc.? EDIT: Just saw this on the 1fastsupra website
** PLEASE NOTE MT CARS HAVE ISSUES WITH JB4 AND CUSTOM MAPPINGS. AT THIS TIME WE WILL NOT BE DOING ANYMORE MT CARS **


Partial unlock:

- For 91 Octane use only, can partial unlock provide a more powerful tune? Or would it be more track friendly than JB4?

Yes. Again: Tune is always better than anything else. The ECU is being tuned, not fooled into thinking it's running normally.

- When 2023 ECU is cloned to 2020 and swapped on the vehicle...lets say 6 months later, if the 2023 ECU is plugged back in to the car, will it lose its mind? As according to the 2023 ECU, mileage/engine hours (whatever the dash records) on the chassis does not match the numbers in its own memory (if its keeping track).

The number will not match. I don't know that anyone has done so to see what will happen, yet. If you live in CA, you could have a problem, though you *should* be able to just tell them you had to replace the ECU due to the old one being damaged. .

- Are there known partial unlocked manuals driving around?

Hopefully others can chime in and you can get the info you need to make your decisions.

 

[raiu]

My take where I think I may be able to lend a bit of insight:



Hopefully others can chime in and you can get the info you need to make your decisions.

There are also people who run custom Jb4 tunes. Would you consider those as "custom" like you and OP are talking about?

 

[kaj]

There are also people who run custom Jb4 tunes. Would you consider those as "custom" like you and OP are talking about?

Technically, but nothing I'd trust for race day. The JB4, itself, is the problem, not the tune.

 

[AndyK5]

My take where I think I may be able to lend a bit of insight:



Hopefully others can chime in and you can get the info you need to make your decisions.

High output meaning 382hp rated vs 335. I am not sure if my friend is on these forums but he was on a white Supra I was on a gray GR86. We were in a garage with a few GT4s. Agreed on 2:01 not being great, I was running 2:08 with a stock GR86 with takeoff tires. I’ve put his time there to show that it was not a leisurely pace.

 

[AndyK5]

There are also people who run custom Jb4 tunes. Would you consider those as "custom" like you and OP are talking about?

I used custom tuning twice, once for the first set of questions under JB4 heading and that custom tuning refers to JB4 tunes sold by members here.


The other is the second set of questions with partial unlock header and refers to bm3 etc…

 

[kaj]

I’ve put his time there to show that it was not a leisurely pace.

Yes but my point is just that the JB4 did not help with that lap time and definitely not worth the risk, IMO.

 

[AndyK5]

Yes but my point is just that the JB4 did not help with that lap time and definitely not worth the risk, IMO.

I am sure of that as well yes.

 

[kaj]

I am sure of that as well yes.

I will reiterate that I am, in no way, a JB4-specific expert and solely basing my recommendations on my knowledge of piggy-back systems, in general.

 

[ColonelAdama]

My take where I think I may be able to lend a bit of insight:



Hopefully others can chime in and you can get the info you need to make your decisions.

Curious where you think all the risk of the JB4 is coming from. The only risk on track is high IATs which will pull so much timing that it negates the boost additive of the JB4. That's why people switch it off to Map 0.

I genuinely don't know where all the "JB4 risk" narrative comes from. There's nothing to suggest its riskier than a flash tune - especially since it has built in boost, timing, fuel pressure, AFR safeties in place that turn off the tune if any are exceeded. Flash tunes don't do that.

 

[Jesse DaBears]

91 = dont bother with jb4. ITs just too poor of octane. Go find some ethanol.

There are some gains to be had but for the price I just dont see the value if you are only running 91. To some people even a 30-40 hp bump is worth it but imo 91 typically pulls timing even in stock form.

 

[kaj]

Curious where you think all the risk of the JB4 is coming from. The only risk on track is high IATs which will pull so much timing that it negates the boost additive of the JB4. That's why people switch it off to Map 0.

I genuinely don't know where all the "JB4 risk" narrative comes from. There's nothing to suggest its riskier than a flash tune - especially since it has built in boost, timing, fuel pressure, AFR safeties in place that turn off the tune if any are exceeded. Flash tunes don't do that.

I thought I explained my reasoning, but I'm too lazy to scroll back ?
I have experience with many piggybacks over the years. I've seen what happens when they fail. Fooling sensors has never been something that I'm a fan of. Knowing that the JB4 has its own checks and limitations helps, but still not something I am comfortable with, personally. Nobody is required to follow my advice.
I also posted my disclaimer but I can add that again since, though I'm super lazy today I can cut and paste from above ?:
"I will reiterate that I am, in no way, a JB4-specific expert and solely basing my recommendations on my knowledge of piggy-back systems, in general."

 

[ColonelAdama]

I thought I explained my reasoning, but I'm too lazy to scroll back ?
I have experience with many piggybacks over the years. I've seen what happens when they fail. Fooling sensors has never been something that I'm a fan of. Knowing that the JB4 has its own checks and limitations helps, but still not something I am comfortable with, personally. Nobody is required to follow my advice.
I also posted my disclaimer but I can add that again since, though I'm super lazy today I can cut and paste from above ?:
"I will reiterate that I am, in no way, a JB4-specific expert and solely basing my recommendations on my knowledge of piggy-back systems, in general."

Yeah I get it, its fine that the concept of "fooling sensors" is something you aren't comfortable with - but also, don't offer advice on things you don't understand ?

I'm with you that a flash tune is the better option overall, but you are talking a ~4x price difference and guaranteed warranty waived. I would be curious about the piggyback failures you have experienced though. 75k+ miles JB4 tuned on my GTI turned to 11, never had an issue.

 

[kaj]

Yeah I get it, its fine that the concept of "fooling sensors" is something you aren't comfortable with - but also, don't offer advice on things you don't understand ?

I'm with you that a flash tune is the better option overall, but you are talking a ~4x price difference and guaranteed warranty waived. I would be curious about the piggyback failures you have experienced though. 75k+ miles JB4 tuned on my GTI turned to 11, never had an issue.

I can absolutely offer advice. At least I base mine on experience and observation. Most people don't even do that.
I'm not the only one allowed to post an opinion. Also, people are free to do what they want. They don't have to follow only my advice.
This is a $50,000 car. People need to be aware of all risks and gather as much information as they can in order to base their own decisions.
It's great you had no problems with your other platform. It's always a bonus when things go smoothly. ????

 

[ColonelAdama]

I can absolutely offer advice. At least I base mine on experience and observation. Most people don't even do that.
I'm not the only one allowed to post an opinion. Also, people are free to do what they want. They don't have to follow only my advice.
This is a $50,000 car. People need to be aware of all risks and gather as much information as they can in order to base their own decisions.
It's great you had no problems with your other platform. It's always a bonus when things go smoothly. ????

I understand - typically objective evidence is used when making blanket claims that piggybacks are unsafe.

I just want one person to show me a datalog of a JB4 killing an engine. ?‍

Sponsored