4 Cylinder B48 Supra vs the Straight Six B58

What are you getting?


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Dannyvandelft

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I’m honestly more upset about the 4 cylinder news than the added power to the 3.0.....

It’s like having a 392 or hellcat and then pulling up to a v6 charger that looks the same minus the hood. I really hate when manufacturers make a cheap version of premium cars, it kills the value of the car for all of us and it makes the car less desirable. This is a supra, it’s meant to be exclusive in the same way the GTR is. I don’t see a 4 cylinder GTR, I see a car that was kept as a premium model and held its value quite well.
If the Supra was as exclusive as the GT-R, It would be $100k+ and most of us wouldn't be able to afford her.
Toyota learned from the NSX "failure" and went the other way. And I'm glad they did. Toyota could've called the LFA the Supra too. So exclusive you'll never see one driving on the road.
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2JZ-No-Sh*t

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I’m honestly more upset about the 4 cylinder news than the added power to the 3.0.....
Don't worry too much. The production rate for the 4 banger is pretty low. I'll be surprised if Toyota reaches their targeted sales with that model. A bunch of people are already predicting it will be pulled from the U.S. after a year or two because of low interest and lackluster sales.
 

YungMercureal

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I’m honestly more upset about the 4 cylinder news than the added power to the 3.0.....

It’s like having a 392 or hellcat and then pulling up to a v6 charger that looks the same minus the hood. I really hate when manufacturers make a cheap version of premium cars, it kills the value of the car for all of us and it makes the car less desirable. This is a supra, it’s meant to be exclusive in the same way the GTR is. I don’t see a 4 cylinder GTR, I see a car that was kept as a premium model and held its value quite well.
I think it's worth noting though that the GTR may not have held its value had Nissan not significantly raised the price over the years. I really don't think the 2.0 is going to really do anything extra to the price of the 3.0. I tend to somewhat agree though that having too many trim levels can dilute the model range, which the Challenger and Camaro are the worst offenders for.
 

MA617M

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You have the remember the GTR was a modified skyline for many many many years.

Plus the Supra has (in all markets since hte A70) had various trim levels - it just so happened they were all sixes.

The current emissions laws will not allow a decent-output NA six, hence the turbo four. You just have to think of it as the 7MGE A70 (or 1G lol) or the 2JZGE A80.

I wish it was a six - as all Supras should have inline sixes - but the world is a very, very different place to the 80s and 90s now.
 

ZDan

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It’s like having a 392 or hellcat and then pulling up to a v6 charger that looks the same minus the hood. I really hate when manufacturers make a cheap version of premium cars, it kills the value of the car for all of us and it makes the car less desirable. This is a supra, it’s meant to be exclusive in the same way the GTR is. I don’t see a 4 cylinder GTR, I see a car that was kept as a premium model and held its value quite well.
The existence of a lower-performance 4-cylinder model doesn't make the 6-cylinder any less of a car, and it might allow it to continue to exist...
I don't know of anyone who thinks that the MkIV turbo is less valuable or less desirable because the NA model existed. I don't think previous GT-Rs are "devalued" or less desirable because they were simply hopped-up Skylines.
For domestics, the garden-variety 1st gen 6-cylinder Mustang doesn't make GT350s less valuable.
Nor do 6-cylinder 1969 Camaros devalue aluminum big-block ZL1s
etc. etc. etc...
I think it's a great idea to sell a lower-spec version for less $$$ as not everyone needs gonzo horsepower potential in a roadgoing sports car.

I've owned a couple of RX-7s (FC 'vert and mega LS2/LS3 FD), but I *always* thought there shoulda been a lower-spec FD available when it was on the market, either non-turbo or (sacrilege!) piston-engine version. Insisting on rotary for Mazda's higher-performing fixed-roof sports car means it doesn't exist any more :'(
 

Waferz

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The existence of a lower-performance 4-cylinder model doesn't make the 6-cylinder any less of a car, and it might allow it to continue to exist...
I don't know of anyone who thinks that the MkIV turbo is less valuable or less desirable because the NA model existed. I don't think previous GT-Rs are "devalued" or less desirable because they were simply hopped-up Skylines.
For domestics, the garden-variety 1st gen 6-cylinder Mustang doesn't make GT350s less valuable.
Nor do 6-cylinder 1969 Camaros devalue aluminum big-block ZL1s
etc. etc. etc...
I think it's a great idea to sell a lower-spec version for less $$$ as not everyone needs gonzo horsepower potential in a roadgoing sports car.

I've owned a couple of RX-7s (FC 'vert and mega LS2/LS3 FD), but I *always* thought there shoulda been a lower-spec FD available when it was on the market, either non-turbo or (sacrilege!) piston-engine version. Insisting on rotary for Mazda's higher-performing fixed-roof sports car means it doesn't exist any more :'(
The rx line could never have been a piston car, RX stands for rotary experiment. I still own an FD with a rotary and it will forever be one of my favorite cars so I have to disagree on this one. I firmly believe that if not for stricter emissions we would have already seen an RX-9. The N/A supra still has a 2JZ so I also have to disagree on that. I do get your point though.
 

Dannyvandelft

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The rx line could never have been a piston car, RX stands for rotary experiment. I still own an FD with a rotary and it will forever be one of my favorite cars so I have to disagree on this one. I firmly believe that if not for stricter emissions we would have already seen an RX-9. The N/A supra still has a 2JZ so I also have to disagree on that. I do get your point though.
100% yes. EPA killed the rotary. In fact, if you connect the taillights and throw a 350 horsepower rotary in front, the Supra would be a perfect modern day FD lol.
 

ZDan

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The rx line could never have been a piston car, RX stands for rotary experiment.
I never said it had to be named "RX". Coulda called it something else like "QX-7". Or "Franklin". But then again the "experimental" part of the RX name wasn't true either anyway! Wait, maybe it actually was...

I still own an FD with a rotary and it will forever be one of my favorite cars so I have to disagree on this one. I firmly believe that if not for stricter emissions we would have already seen an RX-9. The N/A supra still has a 2JZ so I also have to disagree on that. I do get your point though.
FD is one of my favorite cars also, but obviously I had no qualms about dropping a piston-engine in one ;)
787B is one of my favorite race cars too...

Mazda should certainly build a higher-performance fixed-roof coupe sports car, whatever they call it. Piston engine one for sure, possibly optional rotary as well.
And I felt strongly then and now that they shoulda sold a piston-engine version of the FD, and they should also have sold an NA rotary Miata, that would have been sick! Ah well....

Still don't understand the hate on the idea of the 4-cylinder Supra. You don't like it, you don't have to buy it. It doesn't reduce what the 6-cylinder model is one iota.
 

2JZ-No-Sh*t

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The existence of a lower-performance 4-cylinder model doesn't make the 6-cylinder any less of a car, and it might allow it to continue to exist...
That maybe true for other parts of the world like Japan were the break down is 60% 3.0 and 40% 2.0. In the case of the U.S. the 20% projection for the 2.0 is nothing. Honestly, I'll be quite surprised if they will come anywhere near that. Most of our past polls show 10%. The one on this thread is the highest, and that was before the the packaging and pricing of $43k was announced... In the U.S. I don't believe the base price tag of $50k was the issue. I think the reason for the lower than expected sale figures was the high markups by the stealerships.

Still don't understand the hate on the idea of the 4-cylinder Supra. You don't like it, you don't have to buy it. It doesn't reduce what the 6-cylinder model is one iota.
Yup, you're right. It's not for me and I don't plan on getting one. Personally, I don't like the idea, but I'm not going to whine about it in every thread. There is no use in crying over spilled milk; it is what it is. Get over it people, but I will say again I think real world sales will be abysmal and it will get the axed so the "problem" will end up fixing itself.

Summing up some views I have seen from various online platforms.

It's suppose to be the flagship, so Toyota shouldn't have watered it down.
Supra has always been I6, could have at least called the 4 cyl a Celica.
Even Tada said the Supra must have an I6. So does that mean the 4 cyl isn't a real Supra?
 

supraboi

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Yeah, and given it a unique, shorter front end, and a manual trans. But the days of a million different body styles for one car are long gone.
;)

That would have been awesome and would fulfill the promise by Toyota of the "3 brothers". Not to mention a whole lot cheaper and faster than the rumor mill new MR2.
 

vb22

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@ZDan are you still planning on buying a 2.0? I think some people are saying some dealers are getting the leftover 2020s go for as low as $47k.
 

gymratter

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Supra has always been I6, could have at least called the 4 cyl a Celica.
Even Tada said the Supra must have an I6. So does that mean the 4 cyl isn't a real Supra?
in ichitaka05's interview it sounds like Tada pretty much concedes that it's a Celica successor but all the necessary changes they wanted to make was scrapped due to time and cost. either way i think people are making too big of a deal over this. if it's a good car it will sell, if not RIP.

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/supramkv-interview-with-tada-san-on-2021-gr-supra.3445/
 

ZDan

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@ZDan are you still planning on buying a 2.0? I think some people are saying some dealers are getting the leftover 2020s go for as low as $47k.
$43k is about the max I'd go for 2.0 with lsd and Brembos. $43k without those, not as interested.
Not really thinking about getting 3.0. Too much mass, too many $$$...
Experience I had with the 550hp FD kinda informed me that I don't really need killer power/weight. I broke a drive shaft at the end of day 1 at Palmer Motorsports Park a couple of years ago, and for day 2 a friend let me drive his 318ti with about 1/4 the horsepower. As much as I love going fast, I honestly had as much fun in the 318, I got to play with the other cars a lot more!
 

gymratter

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https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-comparison-tests/a32718030/supra-comparison/

Which 2021 Supra Is Best?

For 2021, Toyota gave the six-cylinder Supra more power and introduced a four-cylinder option. Which should be in your garage?

The Supra only arrived last year, but Toyota is already tweaking the formula. Originally, the two-seat sports car, which shares its platform and drivetrain with the BMW Z4, offered a single engine: a 3.0-liter turbo straight-six with 335 horsepower and 365 lb-ft of torque. For 2021, the lineup expands. The six-cylinder engine now makes 382 hp and 368 lb-ft, mostly thanks to exhaust manifold improvements, and the car earns a new front strut-tower brace for added stiffness.

This story originally appeared in the July, 2020 issue of Road & Track.

The big news comes in a small- displacement package. This year, Toyota brings the 2.0-liter turbocharged four- cylinder Supra to the United States. Available in Europe since the model’s debut, the small-engine Supra kicks out 255 hp and 295 lb-ft of torque. It offers a cheaper entry point and a curb weight that’s roughly 220 lbs lighter than the straight-six model, but the eight-speed automatic remains the only transmission available with either engine. Road & Track’s staff is mostly based in New York City, which means we’ve all been suffering from some intense cabin fever. So when two 2021 Supras showed up for a few days of testing, it seemed like the perfect opportunity for some car bickering. Editor-in-chief Travis Okulski took the six-cylinder, deputy editor Bob Sorokanich took the four, and they met up at a scenic spot in the hills an hour north of the city. There, standing a safe distance apart, wearing face masks, and feeling more than a little foolish about it all, the guys pondered the two flavors of Supra on offer.

Bob: I’ve been driving the four-cylinder for a few days. From the first few moments behind the wheel, I knew I liked it better than the six. This is going to sound like car-enthusiast contrarianism, but it’s a little softer, a little less frantic, especially in the front end. That slightly dialed-back feeling fixed one of my biggest gripes with the six-cylinder car.

Travis: The four is a conundrum. It’s lighter. I think it handles better. But the engine isn’t special, just another 2.0-liter turbo. It sounds like nothing. The smaller wheels make it look ordinary. And when you buy a sports car, do you want to have the one that just looks plain and isn’t actually fast?

Bob: When I got in the six, it almost felt too fast. That’s weird, because it’s quick but by no means a supercar. It just never starts to feel alive. You go faster and faster, and you almost don’t notice it, because the car never starts to dance with you. It gives you the speed, but it doesn’t warm up, doesn’t feel like it’s enjoying itself. It’s not a comforting feeling.

Travis: I get that. But at least the six- cylinder car has some character, like it or not. That BMW engine is a monster. The four is anonymous in every application, and the gear ratios just don’t make sense. There’s a huge gap between second and third that makes it less fun on a back road.

Bob:They tried to dress the four up with sports-car stuff. You put the thing into Sport mode and it does these little teensy- weensy backfires when you get off the throttle. Like it’s too embarrassed to actually go WHOMP WHOMP WHOMP the way the six does. If you’re gonna make it backfire, go all the way! I’m mad about this.

Travis: And this is the one you think is better.

Bob: I mean, I also hate the backfiring on the six. It sounds like a storm door slamming around in the wind. Here’s the thing: the six-cylinder has this hyper-aggressive steering response. Even after a day or two driving the car, it would catch me off guard. You turn the wheel and the car goes BAM into the corner, and like two seconds later, inertia catches up and pushes you into the bolster. It’s completely out of step with the rest of the car. The four-cylinder fixes that. Lighter curb weight, slightly softer springs, a little more sidewall. It makes the car feel more playful, more cohesive.

Travis: The first time I drove the six- cylinder, last year, it was on pristine roads and at Lime Rock Park, a smooth track. I dug it. But I’ve driven it since, and the chassis and suspension just don’t react well to rough roads. This newest version, with more horsepower, still feels disjointed on a tight, bumpy backroad. There’s no steering feel and the rear end provides no confidence over bumps. It bounces all over the place. But the engine is burly, robust. Not anemic. And the four, for whatever reason, feels like it’d be the Supra for poseurs, even if it’s the better one to drive.

Bob: Man, that’s the other thing. Toyota gave the six-cylinder 47 more horsepower and I swear I can’t feel it. Last year’s car was plenty quick. We measured 0-60 in 3.9 seconds. The new one does not feel any quicker to me. Do you feel a difference?

Travis: Not even a little bit.

Bob: I think I know why. They gave it 47 more horsepower. Guess how much the torque increased.

Travis: Is it none? None more torque?

Bob: Pretty much. Three lb-ft. You’re probably exerting more torque by turning the steering wheel. And the steering in the 3.0 is too twitchy. Nearly 50 more horsepower didn’t make the car any more engaging. The 2.0 feels more natural, but the engine is dull. This is heresy, but I don’t think a stick shift could solve this car’s problems.

Travis: It’s also all about perception. The Supra and Z4 are meant to serve different people. BMW wants the Z4 to be used for grand touring, Toyota thinks the Supra is for sports-car fans who want to hit the track. In reality, this Supra, like its predecessors, is an excellent GT car. It eats up miles all day and is super comfortable. But when you use it on a track, or on a fast, uneven back road, the flaws start to appear. And you can’t ignore them.

Bob: I dunno if anything with a wheelbase this short can be an “excellent” grand touring car, but I get your drift. So, six-cylinder or four?

Travis: Has to be the six. You?

Bob: I’m going four.

Travis: Do you like how it looks?

Bob: I … hmm. I love the fact that it looks like a sports car. And driving up here behind you, I really started to love the look of the rear end. It has all of the classic stuff you want in a sports car—the big fenders, the low roof. I do not love the front of the thing, though.

Travis: I kind of hated everything about it when I first saw it last year. The rear is busy—so many lines, fake vents galore. The nose looks like a Formula 1 wannabe. But the more time I spend around it, the more it makes sense. Now I dig it. It’s low, aggressive. Looks angry. And it’s striking in profile.

Bob: They did an excellent job of evoking the last Supra without c opying everything about it. Especially the greenhouse. I think people heard the word “Supra” and expected it to have four-circle taillights and a big shopping-cart-handle rear wing. People love that stuff, and they got testy when the new car didn’t have it. I’ll say this: I like the way it looks a hell of a lot more than the Z4.

Travis: Calling it a Supra has two sides. On the one hand, there are expectations and a reputation to live up to, and in a lot of ways it just can’t. On the other hand, this car resonates with fans who aren’t behind the wheel. I had kids in ratty old BMWs shouting about how cool the car was and giving emphatic thumbs-up. People stared everywhere I went. It attracts immediate attention. If that’s what Toyota wanted, then it’s an unmitigated win.

Bob: I’ll tell you something. Before this Supra showed up at my house, I spent a day driving a Rolls Royce Cullinan. It was painted Grimace purple, for Pete’s sake. More people noticed this Supra. It makes me wonder if we’re being unfair to this car. Pretty much nobody is investing in sports cars like this. You can count the two-door cars that compete in the Supra’s price range on one hand. That means something.

Travis: But now it’s literally the same car as a BMW, one that’s better suited to the mission. The Z4 makes more sense.

Bob: More sense in terms of styling? Or as an overall package?

Travis: As a package. The Z4 is a sporty grand tourer in the spirit of the last Supra. Fun on a back road, fine on a track. And you can put the windows down without feeling like your head is going to explode.

Bob: Oh man. Did you feel like you were inside a helicopter when you put your windows down? I thought something was wrong with my car, like a piece of wind deflector fell off. You cannot drive this car with both windows open even a little bit. The buffeting is unbearable.

Travis: Exactly. A sports car you can’t drive with the windows down is a sad prospect. It’s also a cave in there. The low roof and high sills make you feel trapped inside.

Bob: I worry what this says about the people who made the Supra and how they approached this car. People drive their sports cars with the windows down! That’s a pretty standard use case for a car like this. Did they not understand that? Did they just not care? It feels like a pretty glaring oversight. And I think that attitude appears in other places, too.

Travis: Companies just aren’t spending the money or time they did in the past to develop new sports cars. The fact that BMW and Toyota took the time to team up and build a new sports car, something they know won’t be a volume seller, takes guts and faith in enthusiasts. I respect that. And I want to love this car, I really do. But it’s hard to connect with.

Bob: Right! Also, talk about companies with a long history of making great sports cars. Front engine! Rear drive! Straight-six! This is the stuff these brands built their names on. Are we being too nit-picky?

Travis: I don’t think so. It’s not nit-picky to expect two of the world’s best carmakers to build an amazing sports car.
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