About to pull the trigger....MKV or MKIV or GTR?

[Z8AKU]

Any time you put more power into a car while leaving the important components (i.e. suspension) OEM generally mess up the balance of the car, especially any forced induction car in which a tune can make a huge difference. I don't disagree with you about the weight, but that's a known fact.

Anyways, agree to disagree as it sounds like you just happen to have a very bad experience with the car. I too have spent time on the track and huge amount of autox in the GTR in the last 10 years since I have owned it. While I understand your complaints about the car, I never felt the need to make 600whp, instead, I focused on making the car turn better and handle better in transitions than Nissan has set it. "One trick pony" is reserved for cars like the Dodge Charger, Hellcats and the like. I wouldn't even say the Mustang and Camaro are one trick pony anymore as those cars have come a long way in recent years and they are fun to drive.

I did more drag racing than road course and never did any autocross. Set-ups for these different style events are different for applications. So, more power was required to break ET's and 60ft times. Adding power to a stock car won't effect the balance of a car unless that power is used in gears and/or rpms where it would cause the traction to brake loose and become uncontrollable to the driver. In essence, more torque can be beneficial in stabilizing a car in turns i.e. drift scenarios when a driver knows how to properly utilize the additional power in the proper places (Ken Block). It's a fine art.

I didn't have a bad experience in the GT-R's either I'm simply conveying the truth about them. I looked you up on IG and can see you're mostly doing Autocross which generally don't place long periods of stress like road racing does on a car. Take your GT-R out for a few road race sessions and you will find that your GR6 will beg you to stop the abuse LOL. You will get hot trans temp, heat soak, brake fade and if you continue to ignore the onboard warnings and be thrown into the abyss of LIMP MODE prison. Trans fluids get extremely hot from road racing as do the rotors and pads unlike short burst runs like in autocross. Lastly, yes Mustangs and Camaros are still one trick ponies. Mustangs still like to understeer hard left with anyone trying to exhibit WOT on a straight or a turn off the line. Ha!

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[white_turbo]

I did more drag racing than road course and never did any autocross.

Now I understand where your comment on "one trick pony straight line performance" comes from.

Adding power to a stock car won't effect the balance of a car unless that power is used in gears and/or rpms where it would cause the traction to brake loose and become uncontrollable to the driver.

Well, as you said it, it affects traction. By "balance", I don't mean weight distribution, I mean the way the car behaves and has to be driven differently. With more power, your braking point, throttle application and steering can all change relative to your OEM power/setup, and none of these will be apparent to you in a drag race scenario (except maybe throttle application).

I didn't have a bad experience in the GT-R's either I'm simply conveying the truth about them. I looked you up on IG and can see you're mostly doing Autocross which generally don't place long periods of stress like road racing does on a car. Take your GT-R out for a few road race sessions and you will find that your GR6 will beg you to stop the abuse LOL.

Autox and track are very different, but the skills involved are more closely related than you think. On the other hand, you can't say that about drag racing. Not sure what your point is, whether I do autox more than track is irrelevant. It is as irrelevant as you saying GTR is one-trick pony because you drag race most of the time (as you have said it yourself). And I am aware that the transmission has cooling issues on the track (just like most production road cars will, especially with added power)....again, it is irrelevant to your point of one-trick pony.

Lastly, yes Mustangs and Camaros are still one trick ponies. Mustangs still like to understeer hard left with anyone trying to exhibit WOT on a straight or a turn off the line. Ha!

And look, I may come off as a GTR fanboy here trying to defend it. I am not because I am aware of the GTR's shortcoming, and I am not the type that can't appreciate what other cars can do and blindly think car XYZ is the best or certain cars are forever given a label just because. What I am getting at is your extremely inaccurate comment about the "one-trick pony straight line performance" about the GTR and the quoted line above. This is a forum, so everyone can say whatever they want and they are entitled to their opinion, so I will leave you alone now.

Sidenote: thanks for visiting my instagram (would be better if you follow as well), and you could tell that I have driven the newest Camaro a few times this year in an autox setting too.

 

[Z8AKU]

Autox and track are very different, but the skills involved are more closely related than you think. On the other hand, you can't say that about drag racing. Not sure what your point is, whether I do autox more than track is irrelevant.

I disagree with you. With Road Racing, there are multiple cars running at high speeds often times very close to each other. This is referred to as wheel-to-wheel. Not only does this provide a certain element of danger but required skills and strategy to outrace your competitors. With Autocross, its you against the clock. That’s it. There are no cars ahead of or behind you just a series of orange cones to navigate.

In Road Racing the track is an actual road with sweepers and hairpins, hills and valleys, long straightaways, and hidden curves that require a certain amount of advanced planning and driving acumen. Autocross you can literally see the entire course laid out in front of you. It’s flat. There are plenty of twists and turns but nothing is hidden from view. Whoop dee doo da!

Road Racing can last anywhere from 15 minutes to an entire day for endurance racing. That requires not only drivers to have stamina to withstand the ability to handle a car at speed for extended periods of time but also a vehicle that can withstand high fluid temps, high rpms for extended periods and prolonged friction within the transmission plates as well as the rotors and pads. Autocross can be over in as little as a minute hence why you haven't experienced what I did in my GT-R racing road course events in 15 minute sessions at WOT in 80 degree weather.

In Autocross there is no overtaking another car period. Just one driver on the course at a time. With Road Racing, passing is as much an art as it is a science. There are skills required, as well as rules to follow, to executing an effective pass. Autocross is generally ran at much lower speeds than Road Racing. With Road Racing, speeds can reach in excess of 100 mph quickly and often.

In Road Racing there are quite a few rules. When you’re going head to head at 150 mph, safety of all drivers is paramount. There are rules for passing, contacting other drivers, as well as for getting on and off the track. Violation of the rules can actually have you taken out of the race if not banned from the track entirely. There are rules that govern the type of car you are running including engine, suspension, tires, etc.. The rules around Autocross are more about ensuring participants can bring their daily drivers and compete against time with drivers of like vehicles.

Autocross is designed for the individual to bring their daily driver and put it through it’s paces. No upgraded equipment needed. Just what came off the dealer lot. Road Racing will absolutely stress your car. From oil changes every time you go out to swapping out the brake pads just as frequently. And if you’re planning to hit those corners hard, more than likely you’ll need a set of tires dedicated for racing as well as a beefed up suspension. Which means you’ll also need the ability to make those changes at the track and often times bring someone with you to assist.

So, my point is quite relevant as you can see. Again, put your GT-R on a road course with some other 600hp cars and see just how much of a one trick pony your car really is. Anyone, can drive a car around parking lot for 60 seconds around cones fast this doesn't mean your car can handle a road course in any real type of endurance session unless it's set-up for such an event. A stock GT-R attempting road course is asking for trouble by the way. I have seen them go into limp mode even before ending one single 15 minute session. Gassed out and overheated parked in the pits.

It is as irrelevant as you saying GTR is one-trick pony because you drag race most of the time (as you have said it yourself). And I am aware that the transmission has cooling issues on the track (just like most production road cars will, especially with added power)....again, it is irrelevant to your point of one-trick pony.

I race drag race and road course not sure if you read my last post entirely and thoroughly. No, most other cars don't suffer cooling issues like the GT-R does. My 2020 MKV is making nearly 500whp and I have driven it full WOT in sport mode for hours on many canyon runs and it's never once rattled, given me any temp warnings or given me the slightest brake fade even pounding on the OEM factory pads repeatedly.

What I am getting at is your extremely inaccurate comment about the "one-trick pony straight line performance" about the GTR and the quoted line above. This is a forum, so everyone can say whatever they want and they are entitled to their opinion, so I will leave you alone now.

You're attempting to convince me and others here that a GT-R is more than capable of just straight line performance by using a 60 second autocross session as an example that the car can get through a measly slalom test without the known GT-R problems occurring. Not going to work sorry. Here is a nice article to substantiate exactly what I have been stating here.

http://www.gtrfails.com

 

[white_turbo]

...

 

[Z8AKU]

Gary I see you have 69 dash cam videos of your SCCA runs on your Youtube channel. Looks like you forget to read the brochure LOL

 

[PerformanceSound]

You're attempting to convince me and others here that a GT-R is more than capable of just straight line performance by using a 60 second autocross session as an example that the car can get through a measly slalom test without the known GT-R problems occurring. Not going to work sorry. Here is a nice article to substantiate exactly what I have been stating here.

http://www.gtrfails.com

There are over-dramatic stories like this from many people about various sports cars all over the web. I do know that the first gens of the R35’s were the most “problematic” but almost every “problem” has been addressed....and personally, if I get a GTR, a 2017+ will be my choice, most of the “major” issues have been sorted out by Nissan 2017 and on. As for the short story in the link, Porsche’s have their horror stories too....I still love them, but they are far from perfect track cars. If anyone is planning to buy a car to track it really hard, they need to be prepared to prep it beforehand (coolers, brakes, tires, etc...). I don’t think any car nowadays is designed to be punished really hard on the track and walk away uninjured....Nissan, Porsche, Bugatti, or whatever. They all need attention before tracking them.

 

[Z8AKU]

There are over-dramatic stories like this from many people about various sports cars all over the web. I do know that the first gens of the R35’s were the most “problematic” but almost every “problem” has been addressed....and personally, if I get a GTR, a 2017+ will be my choice, most of the “major” issues have been sorted out by Nissan 2017 and on. As for the short story in the link, Porsche’s have their horror stories too....I still love them, but they are far from perfect track cars. If anyone is planning to buy a car to track it really hard, they need to be prepared to prep it beforehand (coolers, brakes, tires, etc...). I don’t think any car nowadays is designed to be punished really hard on the track and walk away uninjured....Nissan, Porsche, Bugatti, or whatever. They all need attention before tracking them.

Sadly you're wrong. Nissan did not change or revise the bellhouse, the GR6 transmission nor did they upgrade the rotors and the pads on a 2017+ model. They are the same as 2012+ models. The 2017+ models only got standard 2015+ Nismo rotors and pads big whoop they also are prone to fade and heat.

 

[PerformanceSound]

Sadly you're wrong. Nissan did not change or revise the bellhouse, the GR6 transmission nor did they upgrade the rotors and the pads on a 2017+ model. They are the same as 2012+ models. The 2017+ models only got standard 2015+ Nismo rotors and pads big whoop they also are prone to fade and heat.

I’d take a second peek at the R35’s TSB history.

Btw, brakes wearing out quickly doesn’t necessarily mean defective brakes. My 2007 IS350 had front pads that wore out at 10k miles. They weren’t defective, just designed that way to reduce noise....people bitched....and Lexus replaced them via TSB with crappier pads that lasted longer but made more noise. People forget the GTR is a supercar for everyday use. Nissan could have put much louder and more annoying brakes on the GTR that would be excellent performers at the track....yet they had to keep the car civilized. That’s why I said people usually prep their cars prior to racing (pads, rotors, cooler, tires, etc...).

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

There are over-dramatic stories like this from many people about various sports cars all over the web. I do know that the first gens of the R35’s were the most “problematic” but almost every “problem” has been addressed....and personally, if I get a GTR, a 2017+ will be my choice, most of the “major” issues have been sorted out by Nissan 2017 and on. As for the short story in the link, Porsche’s have their horror stories too....I still love them, but they are far from perfect track cars. If anyone is planning to buy a car to track it really hard, they need to be prepared to prep it beforehand (coolers, brakes, tires, etc...). I don’t think any car nowadays is designed to be punished really hard on the track and walk away uninjured....Nissan, Porsche, Bugatti, or whatever. They all need attention before tracking them.

Porsches? They're one of the most reliable cars on the road aren't they? I can't think of a single car in their lineup that's problematic. They've really nailed it there at Porsche.

 

[Viselord]

@PerformanceSound Have you tried out the cars? Any thoughts?

 

[Z8AKU]

I’d take a second peek at the R35’s TSB history.

Btw, brakes wearing out quickly doesn’t necessarily mean defective brakes. My 2007 IS350 had front pads that wore out at 10k miles. They weren’t defective, just designed that way to reduce noise....people bitched....and Lexus replaced them via TSB with crappier pads that lasted longer but made more noise. People forget the GTR is a supercar for everyday use. Nissan could have put much louder and more annoying brakes on the GTR that would be excellent performers at the track....yet they had to keep the car civilized. That’s why I said people usually prep their cars prior to racing (pads, rotors, cooler, tires, etc...).

Have you owned any R35 GT-R's? Driven any on a road course for 15 minute sessions? It's not just the pads. The GR6 transmission cannot handle high fluid temps and the rotors have been known to literally crack during session.

Porsches? They're one of the most reliable cars on the road aren't they? I can't think of a single car in their lineup that's problematic. They've really nailed it there at Porsche.

Exactly! Every time I visit the track the GT3/RS come bone stock and run many sessions and none have needed to break for a cool down due to trans temps or brake fade like the R35 GT-R.

 

[PerformanceSound]

Thanks alot for your guys input....it's funny some of you mention the STI as a great daily, because I feel the same way about it. I purchased the STI exactly for that reason; a fun, quick, great handling, AWD, and manual transmission car....with 4 doors and decent creature comforts, all for just under $40k msrp. Nothing still comes close to it's bang for the buck in that range. I love it, and no longer have plans to ever sell it...especially with manual cars becoming more scarce. It will be my "fix" for those times I want to drive a manual car.

I just got back from California a few days ago, and had a chance to properly drive; a 1997 Supra 6spd, a 2017 GTR, and one of two 2020 Supra's. My decision is.......an R35 GTR. Before anyone goes on a hate rant, let me tell you why. First of all, all three cars are great, they all have their pros and cons. I didn't feel like anyone of those cars had a "major" downside to them....none at all. However, the GTR just felt like the right car for me.

MKIV 6spd Supra:
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- Seating position made me feel like I was sitting on the ground with my feet feeling like they were higher than my waistline. Odd feeling....but kind of cool at the same. Hard to explain. Love the wrap around dash for the driver.
- Very spartan interior. It feels like a 90's car...which it is, but im so used to having all these creature comforts that I caught myself at times looking for the phone button in the steering wheel and realizing it didn't exist...lol. Good quality materials, made to last...but boring and very plain.
- Good power for it's time. The car still feels quick even for today's standards. Obviously it is capable of alot more...but, I got the feeling the car wouldn't be very "enjoyable" with triple the power. Enjoyable in terms of predictability and confidence. At stock power, the car felt like it can easily lose control in hard acceleration going on-ramp on the highway...which almost happened a few times. I can't imagine how much more "worried" a driver would be with triple the power in this car. Again, 90's tech....great for it's time. Definitely a straight line car when going big power.
- The manual transmission is so much fun in the MKIV. Too bad it lived a short life. Never did it feel sloppy or did I miss a gear. Swiss watch precision.
- Car seems to rattle and squeak a fair bit (not terribly)....owner told me they all do this, however, it's not a deal breaker but for me it annoyed me. Felt like things were not bolted down well or rubber stoppers on hood or hatch maybe worn out or something I dont know. It would drive me nuts as a daily. I'm weird like that.
- Overall, for what these cars are going for (cost wise), there are much better options with more tech, better handling, and some with same if not better tuning capability. Still, the MKIV can be a great daily and for being a 20+yr old car, not a single leak anywhere. Toyota quality!

MKV Supra (Thanks Seun):
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- Fast car! For some reason, I thought it wasn't that fast out of the box....but it was a welcomed surprise. It's also great to get boost to come on early, great for daily driving that's for sure. The auto transmission is nice, but feels too comfortable....almost luxury car-like shifting.
- Handles very very well. I tried throwing it off balance a few times at the old Alameda Naval Base parking lot a few time, but I could not. This thing can handle on flat ground.
- Seating position is great, however, I felt I was sitting higher than both the MKIV and GTR at the lowest seat setting. It was much more comfortable than the MKIV, but a bit too snug compared to the GTR.
- High tech...full of cool new features. I know alot of the tech is BMW, but honestly...it doesn't feel like a BMW to me. I really felt like I was in a modern Toyota car. Maybe I just haven't been in many BMW's lately, but it has a unique feel inside. Definitely has good materials. There are a few "cheap" feeling plastics, but very minimal.
- It's cramped inside....at least for me it is. I am 6'2" and honestly, I fit tightly inside the car. It reminds me alot of the S2000, slightly roomier. My fiance' was like "what are you talking about? This is roomy!". She is also 5'4". This is also one of the main reasons why I decided to go with the GTR. I felt "big" in the MKV. I fit in the car, don't get me wrong...I just fit tooo snug in it, more than I'd like.
- Road noise is very minimal compared to the MKIV.
- IT IS BEAUTIFUL IN PERSON. There are some angles of this car that make it look so damn gorgeous....especially when its facing you and you are looking down at it from a second level window.
- Overall, a fantastic car. With a manual, this thing would be amazing to drive. There has to be a manual offered eventually. It's fast, handles great, looks sexy asf, and feels like a quality car. One thing I will say about the MKV Supra, is that the suspension setup is noticeably different compared to the MKIV and the R35. I know they are because of the strut vs. double wishbone, but he MKV handles better than a MKIV, and there were times when I was accelerating and when I hit bumps on the street, the car didn't feel very stable....it would sort of drift to the left or right post bump. Didn't feel that in the MKIV or the R35. Then again, I almost let the tail out on the MKIV a few times after turning. Yikes.

R35 GTR:
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- It's VERY FAST! I've driven R35 GTR's before, but I forgot just how fast they really are out of the box. For those comparing cars and an R35 is one of them, I highly recommend you lineup a few cars ahead of time, and drive them back to back. It really puts things into perspective in terms of the speed of this car.
- Roomy! Sort of reminds me of the 90's Lexus cars....good leg room, seats feel excellent, I can move slightly side-to-side in them. Great headroom. You get this sense of alot of space behind you. Even though when you look behind, it's just back seats very close to you. Something always makes you feel like your lugging around more car than you really are. Some may not like that feeling, but I do.
- It has rear seats. One thing I love about the MKIV and my STI, is that I can get in and quickly throw something in the back seats. Again, some may not like this, but I do.
- Suspension is fantastic on this car. There were a few times I took some stupid sharp turns near the Hangar 1 parking lot, and I felt like my face was going to be ripped off. On top of it all, it stays planted. Didn't hear any tire screeching, didn't feel unstable during recovery, nothing. This must explain Lotus's part in the development of the car.
- Transmission is noisy, not terribly noisy but at times at low speeds it makes you think there is something not right. They all do it, and they do it because it's a beefy unit. It shifts so quickly and feels like a manual automatically shifting of that makes sense. Sounds stupid I know, but it does. The MKV is much smoother shifting, but the R35 has this "mechanical" shifting feel to it's DCT.
- It feels incredibly stable at high speeds. This thing feels heavy! You can feel the girth of car when braking hard and taking sharp turns. I like it though, I feel safer in this car than the other two.
- Tech inside not as new compared to the MKV (specifically the gauges), but enough to still be pretty comfortable. I also love the interior quality. I know some have mentioned "Altima" plastics and what not...I did not notice that, but the cheaper pieces didn't stick out as much as compared to the MKIV or MKV...maybe it was because they are not in sight as much as the other two cars. Also, cheap plastics on all three cars seemed the same in terms of quality...there wasn't one that had better cheaper plastics.
- Overall, this car has everything for me; speed, handling, room, and tech. I don't care too much about styling or exterior sizes, but interior room and comfort in a super fast car is key for me. Car feels like it can go 200mph+ without a hiccup.

I didn't talk about engine or modding about any of these cars, because I think at this point we all are familiar with their capabilities.

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and comments, I did consider them. The 997 was also a candidate, however, their prices (for clean examples) have made them out of reach as a used car, at least for me for now.

I know this a MKV Supra forum and I hope I will still be welcomed without any flame or hate in the future. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

 

[Jabba]

Great to hear about your decision. I'm sure you're going to have a blast in the R35. Ultimately, we all should test drive the options before making rash assumptions based on others opinions.

 

[white_turbo]

Porsches? They're one of the most reliable cars on the road aren't they? I can't think of a single car in their lineup that's problematic. They've really nailed it there at Porsche.

Not sure how you read into his post as saying Porsches have lots of reliability issues. The point he was making is all manufacturers have issues (some more than others and some more serious than others). And very often, some of these issues are overblown on the internet. Did the GTR have transmission issues? Probably. Were they all Nissan's fault? Maybe or maybe not because you have kids launching the car at every single traffic light and when things blow up, they bitch on the forums because Nissan denied their warranty.

My GTR is a 2009 and I have had this car since new. The only transmission issue I have had so far (and touch wood) is some debri got stuck in the solenoid and was fixed with a trans fluid change. Now I would say I haven't used the launch control at all on my car knowing that the transmission cannot take all that abuse. Do I wish the GR6 is built like the PDK so I can do multiple launches without breaking? Sure I do, but I have accepted the fact that I didn't pay Porsche money for the car, so there is some compromise here. Otherwise, the car has been pretty reliable to me.

The 997 GT3 had coolant pipe exploding when the car is used for track days too, so they aren't 101% bullet proof either but let's not nitpick and focus on the bigger picture?

Back to the point, if a car is used enough for tracks (whether it is drag, autox, HPDE etc.), certain OEM parts will eventually give up (more often when you start tuning and make more power). Brakes and tires are consumable and do not last forever nor they are made to last 10 track days from factory, but they will do just fine if you are just puttering around town and your backroads. Well, some smart ass is going to come in and say "well, then you are driving hard enough on the streets", but yeah, if you do wear your brakes/tires quickly from the streets , then you are just an inconsiderate asshole endangering people on the road.

 

[white_turbo]

My decision is.......an R35 GTR.

Well....that was a terrible choice, now you can stop trolling this forum. Enjoy the car.

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