New rumors from C&D: 2020 Supra to get BMW inline six engine / B58 & S58 chat

If the new Supra does indeed come with a BMW motor, woud you still buy the car?


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kamran

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My personal criteria for an engine in a car that I might be interested are (sorry long post):
1- it has to be built in the country of origin. So that no smart PM or bean counter can come up with a more economical way of building the thing, and still stay within the specs (I see the problems with many outsourced engines or parts)
2- the water pump impeller cannot be composite material. It has to be made of alloys. This part indicates to me to what extend the manufacturer has gone to shave costs to save a few pennies by supplying inferior material. Most German cars now use composite impellers, which imho I think is due to the pressure of meeting a price point to be competitive with the Japanese. Most performance Japanese cars are still using alloy impellers.

When I bought my FRS, I waited in the showroom for a couple of hours until they could confirm and answer my questions on the build. Because the dealer didn't know.

Just as an FYI, composite impellers have been one of the major causes of engines blowing up at the track. Audi customers at one point, I heard from an Audi service mgr, were thinking of initiating a class action law suits because the OEM replacement water pumps still had composite impellers, and Audi Am wouldn't support the customers who destroyed their engines as a result of shattered water impeller which lead to engine failures.




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Tunnel_D

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Even cars "built in the USA" or whatever the case may be, have parts that are sourced from all over the world. I don't really see the problem with it so long as the company has strict quality control requirements. I also think it's not always a cost saving measure (altho usually it is). Might have to do utilizing expertise found elsewhere. For that, I'd be okay with having some German hands in the R&D or building of some parts for the next Supra.
 

kamran

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Here, you can go here to see the list of engines made in the country of origin (a couple of pages down). Then based on your knowledge of problemmed engines you know of (I know several), take a look to see if it was manufactured in the country of origin:

http://m.wardsauto.com/site-files/wardsauto.com/files/uploads/Mahle-2012-Web-Edition.pdf

The shocker to me was the $150K+ cars with issues that I found were not made in the country of origin, when the country of origin has much better records of manufacturing than where the engines were produced!!!
 

Tunnel_D

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The shocker to me was the $150K+ cars with issues that I found were not made in the country of origin, when the country of origin has much better records of manufacturing than where the engines were produced!!!
That was sort of my point...that it depends on how the record of manufacturing is in the country, even if it is not the country of origin. I can understand being concerned about things made in china for example but for a joint development from Toyota/BMW, either country of origin would not worry me too much.
 

kamran

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You did notice that the well "respected" (???) mfr Audi builds their engines in Hungary (including their R8)...and that the higher end BMW engines are made in Germany and the lesser models are not, right? Both Germans...

As much as I'd love to bad mouth Audi (a "German" mfr) and their reliability (including their R8), I don't need to go there since their reputation for reliability speaks loudly for itself!

Subaru wasn't listed, but they had issues when they decided to manufacture their engines in Canada...whereas the Japanese engines were decent.

So again, when something is fresh off the boat without any proven history, I'd take the country of origin first before I venture into buying an outsourced product (that's if I have a choice).
 
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celerity

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Coming Toyota Supra to forgo hybrid, get a BMW six-cylinder turbo?

For years, almost all of the talk about the Toyota FT-1 concept becoming a resurrected Supraenvisioned a hybrid under the hood. And then the latest take on Future Toyota 1 showed up at the 2014 Detroit Auto Show and - although Toyota wouldn't say a word about any engine at all - horizons began to expand. Imaginary fancies were aided by the news that Toyota had partnered with BMW to develop a sports car on the next-generation BMW Z4 platform, which would necessarily mean an engine bay designed to accept an old-fashioned hunk of gas-burning iron-working solo.

Car and Driver now turns the whole thing around, reporting that there will be an inline-six with forced induction provided by BMW under the hood. What about that hybrid, though? The report states, "there's currently no indication that the Silk Road cars will offer hybrid options" - 'Silk Road' being the codename for the jointly-developed vehicles. CD makes a point to note that said tidbit came from Germany, not Japan. However, designers at Toyota's Calty studio did tell Automotive News last yearthat they designed the body with an inline-six in mind, a nod to the Supra's history.

Hybrid rumors aren't dead yet, though - remember, we were hearing about all-wheel drive and supercapacitors in May 2014. The coupe is predicted to be a 2018 model, making its appearance sometime in 2017, and be "about 10 percent" smaller than the FT-1 concept.
https://www.autoblog.com/2015/03/30/toyota-supra-bmw-inline-six-turbo-engine-rumor/

bmw-toyota.jpg
 

Craigy

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Holy crap.

Not sure what to think, mixed emotions here. If I wanted an M4, I'd buy an M4. And 2018 MY, conceivably at the end of 2017, feels like a long way off.

If true, a lot of stuff will be done right, like chassis dynamics and gearbox, but we'll likely be stuck with less power and a higher pricetag.

I wish there was more info regarding the source of these "leaks out of Germany." C&D is usually pretty reliable, no BS.
 
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celerity

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If true, I am disappointed. I was really hoping for a Toyota power plant with either a 3.5 Twin Turbo V6 or a NA 5.0 V8 (I knew the V8 was unlikely but one can dream). I'm with you, Craigy, if I wanted a Bimmer, I'd buy an M4.
 

Supraman

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So it sounds like we're getting an M4 in a different suit (I can hear the Bimmer fan boys comments when seeing this car). If all is true, I'm kind of dissapointed with Toyota. I guess we'll have to wait 2 more years to see.

To me at the end it sounds like this platform may be used for the LF-LC production as well.
 

kamran

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If we are looking at 2018, then either toyota will have a flop on their hands like NSX where it'll be old news by then, unless they completely change the design, which I'm not sure I'll be a fan anymore. Loosing their current momentum and the wow factor with the FT1 would not be a smart move, unless they have something more potent in their back pocket they are not sharing.

GT4 looking better and better everyday!

Toyota drivetrain: not checked
NA boxer engine or sorts: not checked
No turbo: not checked
Manufacturer Bullet proof reliability: not checked
Buying it before going on Maicare: may be not checked! Lol
 

FRS-Man

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If true, I am disappointed. I was really hoping for a Toyota power plant with either a 3.5 Twin Turbo V6 or a NA 5.0 V8 (I knew the V8 was unlikely but one can dream). I'm with you, Craigy, if I wanted a Bimmer, I'd buy an M4.
That's the most disappointing part to me too. The M3/M4 engine is about as good as turbo 6 cylinders get but it's still a BMW (and not a Toyota) engine :(

That leaves the question why does someone buy a Supra over an M4 besides looks and price? Hopefully the answer is the better performance it will have from being much lighter due to its futuristic platform.

And is the article also saying that there won't be a second generation FR-S?? :confused1:
 

Craigy

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That's the most disappointing part to me too. The M3/M4 engine is about as good as turbo 6 cylinders get but it's still a BMW (and not a Toyota) engine :(

That leaves the question why does someone buy a Supra over an M4 besides looks and price? Hopefully the answer is the better performance it will have from being much lighter due to its futuristic platform.
I would take the 6 cylinders out of the GT-R or the 911 Turbo S over the S55 in the M4. But preferably I'd want a Toyota design.

Surely BMW could make more power from the S55 (which is arguably underrated), but it would undercut the M4 and whatever new Z car it's going into, and even encroach upon the six-figure M6. There's no way BMW will let Toyota sell their equipment for less money than BMW that performs better than BMW's offerings.

After all the hype and driving the car in the game, etc., it'll be disappointing to get some ~400 horsepower car for $65k.

Hopefully Toyota has something else up its sleeve, and these rumors are baseless.
 

gymratter

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if true, im not surprised by this report. i think we all knew deep down inside the chances of FT1 using BMW's I6 was pretty high. but the purest kept hoping and paying for otherwise.

anyways, i would rather have a BMW I6 under the hood than the rumored 2.0 4 cylinder.

BMW will certainly develop a four-cylinder variant for the Z4 while Toyota is unlikely to offer the smaller engine.

That noted, the platform should have enough powertrain and dimensional flexibility to be used for other BMW variations and possibly a Lexus model.
good, a new Supra should not have anything less than 6 cylinders.

i said the same thing on the other thread.
 

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