New rumors from C&D: 2020 Supra to get BMW inline six engine / B58 & S58 chat

If the new Supra does indeed come with a BMW motor, woud you still buy the car?


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FT1freddy

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^ I agree. For all we know BMW may just be supplying just the block and Toyota will supply the rest. Or it may be an M4 engine and Toyota may tweek a few things to make it better and more reliable. This can help BMW as well learning what the Japenese can do/change to make their engine more powerful and also not losing reliability. I hope this is the case rather than a full BMW engine.
That's what I hope too. Toyota needs to put their fingerprints all over this engine or the Supra will be stigmatized as just a Toyota shell with a BMW M3/M4 engine and BMW CF platform underneath, even if that engine and platform are awesome




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kamran

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Not sure what to make of this, but I believe so far all M cars have been built in Germany. All the non-M cars are just a mix bag to meet price points.
 

TorqueRules

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Not sure what to make of this, but I believe so far all M cars have been built in Germany.
But they could just ship the M engines over to a US plant, or maybe assemble them right here for the Supra. Anyways, such a weird statement to even type and even weirder to think about.
 

Supraman

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From all the rumors so far on what's to be of this car, it seems like being built at a BMW plant is most likely since they will be providing most resources and building it.
 

Supra93

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(Not really FT-1 news, but a good read)

The accountants want fewer cylinders. The engineers want smooth engines. The compromise? A good straight six. Let us explain.

546b4884c21f2_-_roa100114dpt_boot-enginerdy-lg.jpg


The V8 engine has long ruled the world of luxury cars, thanks to glass-smooth grunt and a delicious howl under duress. But tightening fuel-economy regulations are encouraging the use of smaller piston counts, and on the standardized tests that automakers use for fuel-efficiency ratings, the average downsized, turbocharged V6 uses less fuel than an equally powerful V8. That may seem win-win, but don't be won over. Engineers don't fantasize about V6s—accountants do. The V6 layout has proliferated because it "packages well," a sexless industry term that's code for "easy to cram into a variety of engine compartments."

It's also incredibly easy to build a V6 from an existing V8. Jaguar, for example, doesn't even bother changing the outside dimensions of its block. The company's V6, available in every new Jag sold in the U.S., is simply its V8 with shorter cylinder heads and balancing weights on the crankshaft where the last two piston throws should be.

546b409693d84_-_photo22-lg.jpg


It works, but not without compromises. Like all V8-derived V6s, Jaguar's has a 90-degree angle between its cylinder banks. That works well for a V8, but it's the wrong angle for a six, because it means the engine will fire at uneven intervals, and odd-fire engines run rough and make terrible noises. A V6 will fire at perfectly spaced intervals (read: smoothly) with its banks splayed to 120 degrees, but that's too wide to fit in most cars. Halving that angle keeps the even firing order and, with a couple of crank counterweights, it allows for smooth running. Toyota's ubiquitous 3.5-liter V-6 is a 60, and it's as creamy as they come.

But a 60-degree six negates the economic advantage of basing the engine off an existing V8. So luxury brands tend to stick with the 90-degree architecture and apply various tricks to make it work for a V6. The big one is using split, offset crankpins. These are impossible to fully understand without a physics degree and a stiff drink, but in essence, they slightly offset opposing pistons, forcing them to move in such a way that the engine fires evenly. But these are difficult to engineer and expensive to manufacture. Plus, the 90-degree V6 usually has an engine-driven balance shaft to prevent the whole complicated mess from vibrating itself apart. All of this adds expense, hurts efficiency, and requires royalty payments to Rube Goldberg.

That complexity, however, masks the problem instead of solving it. The mass of the pistons moving up and down in an internal combustion engine creates enormous forces, which cause the engine to vibrate. The most effective way to reduce that vibration is to use the force of one piston to cancel out the force of another; in other words, as piston A moves in one direction (up), piston B moves in the exact opposite direction (down) at exactly the same time. But that's only possible for engines with an even number of pistons in a single plane, like an inline-four-cylinder. When you have an odd number of cylinders, as with an inline-three, the force moving in one direction (say, up) is almost always imbalanced compared with the force moving in the opposite direction (down). This makes the engine rock back and forth. Now think about a V6, which is essentially two three-cylinder engines joined at the crank—it's like having a pair of amped-up pit bulls on a shared leash. And that typically means a whole lot of unpleasant mechanical noise, to boot.

You can avoid the drama by arranging the pistons in one line. A straight-six doesn't need split crankpins, balance shafts, or big counterweights, because each of its cylinders has a twin that's doing the opposite thing, at the same time and in the same plane, canceling out the other's forces. That lack of internal dissonance gives the same perfect balance as a V12. There's a reason museum-piece marques like Rolls-Royce, Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar, Aston Martin, and Alfa Romeo earned their reputations with inline-sixes.

546b488571a14_-_84f286-lg.jpg



At the moment, BMW remains the sole champion of the straight-six. Munich engineers admit that they regularly develop and test prototype V6s, per internal policy, but say the results don't come close to meeting company noise and harshness standards. Mercedes-Benz must not have such stringent benchmarks. Once renowned for its silken inline-sixes, Stuttgart phased out those engines and began building V6s out of its V8s during the dark, cost-cutting days of the marque's DaimlerChrysler ownership. As the sting of that failed merger continues to fade, so will the company's coarse, complex, 90-degree V6, which is being retired in favor of a 60-degree unit. This stopgap engine, which fits into the vee-focused packaging of Mercedes's current lineup, is noticeably smoother than the 90-degree unit, but its exhaust still sounds like Fran Drescher on Spanish fly—not the voice you want your luxury car to sing with.

That's likely one reason Mercedes is rumored to be developing a new family of inline-sixes. And because accountants, not engineers, usually run the show these days, you can be sure there's an economic incentive as well. As tightening fuel-economy standards encourage four- and six-cylinder engines where sixes and eights once lived, an inline layout becomes the norm and it makes financial sense to develop a modular family of inline-threes, fours, and sixes. Add the straight-six's other cost-savings (half as many cylinder heads, camshafts, and turbos), and suddenly, tougher emissions mandates have the unintended consequence of unifying the dreams of engineers and bean counters alike. It's a dream aligned in one straight line.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/videos/a8645/the-enginerdy-dept-straight-six-revival/
 

FT1freddy

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Fascinating and super informational read thanks. Good to know that if the Supra really does get the M3-M4 inline turbo engine it'll at least be the best 6 cylinder layout possible.

My only experience with an inline 6 was testing a 328i back in like 2007 before they went turbo. The engine definitely felt creamy smooth. Wonder how the new BMW 6 engines feel with the turbos added to the inline 6. Anyone had experience?
 

Rod.S

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My only experience with an inline 6 was testing a 328i back in like 2007 before they went turbo. The engine definitely felt creamy smooth. Wonder how the new BMW 6 engines feel with the turbos added to the inline 6. Anyone had experience?
They feel just as smooth. Just have some added small turbo whine and of course a lot more torque-y. Issue is their N54 and N55 turbo engines have had fuel pump issues. At least 2 recalls I can remember reading about now with the latest one being just last week.
 

Wally World

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They feel just as smooth. Just have some added small turbo whine and of course a lot more torque-y. Issue is their N54 and N55 turbo engines have had fuel pump issues. At least 2 recalls I can remember reading about now with the latest one being just last week.
Besides the fuel pump issue those engines have been reliable from what I've read. They've done a good job reducing turbo lag with use of two small scrolls. Their 6 cyl turbos sounds great but the 4y cyl turbos sound like diesels at idle.

Can't believe we're talking about BMW engines so much now that there's rumors of the Supra being powered by one :rant:
 

Supra93

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The prototype does looks smaller than the M4.

What if the inline turbo six that's being speculated isn't the M3/M4's S55 but the upcoming M2's tuned-up N55 engine, only even more tuned up (either by BMW or Toyota) for the Supra??

Info on that engine - http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1079552
X2, if so, what is the main differences? I did a quick look and it says they are both 3.0 turbo I6. But the M2 is 60hp less than the M4.
 
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EMTer

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The prototype does looks smaller than the M4.

X2, if so, what is the main differences? I did a quick look and it says they are both 3.0 turbo I6. But the M2 is 60hp less than the M4.
Here's the differences between the M2's N55 and M3/M4's S55's engines (got this from Bimmerpost)

1. Closed desk (stronger casting, heavier but with less flex/better vibration suppression and better cooling/heat capacity)
2. Forged crankshaft/better crank for high RPM operation/harsher operation
3. Different piston design
4. Spray on cylinder lining - better design, lower friction, better sealing, better wear, longer lasting
5. Valvetronic added AND unique valvetronic changes allowing the continued firing of 2-4 cylinders when off-throttle to continue turbo spool up/reduce or eliminate turbo lag
6. Significantly enhanced cooling in terms of the block itself and ancillaries
7. New turbos. I've read both Mitsubishi or Honeywell - not sure which it actually is. I suspect they will be very similar in size to the n54 though, by which I mean SMALL turbos capable of the fastest response at the expense of flow volume. Edit: It appears likely the Mitsubishi TF035 is the chosen turbo family with design elements unique to the S55. Not confirmed.
8. New exhaust manifold-to-turbo design for less restriction/faster response
9. Magnesium oil pan
10. Revised oil pump and pick-ups better suited for track use
11. A lot of "efficient dynamics" ancillary changes from the n54 such as EPS, alternator disconnecting, etc.
 

daboss

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The prototype does looks smaller than the M4.

X2, if so, what is the main differences? I did a quick look and it says they are both 3.0 turbo I6. But the M2 is 60hp less than the M4.

Seems like the M2 might even be abandoning its current N55 engine in favor of the M3/M4's S55 engine:
http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1308395&page=4

But whatever engine is in the spy videos we've seen definitely does not sound like the M3/M4.
 

gymratter

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Seems like the M2 might even be abandoning its current N55 engine in favor of the M3/M4's S55 engine:
http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1308395&page=4

But whatever engine is in the spy videos we've seen definitely does not sound like the M3/M4.
people are thinking it maybe a special/limited edition CSL type. doing this for mass production will surely affect sales of the M4 IMO.

agreed, the M2 video with the S55 sounds more mean.
 

Scuba Steve

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BMW interior, BMW engine, BMW co developed chassis. Engineered and tested in Germany. Being built by Magna Steyr... seems unbelievable for such an important vehicle to Toyota.

My question is exactly what is Toyota doing? design only?
 

FT1freddy

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BMW interior, BMW engine, BMW co developed chassis. Engineered and tested in Germany. Being built by Magna Steyr... seems unbelievable for such an important vehicle to Toyota.

My question is exactly what is Toyota doing? design only?
If I had to guess I would say their hybrid system.
 

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