Nismo Z vs Mustang Dark Horse vs GR Supra

[Joker328]

I think they have a lot of valid criticisms and they have a lot more seat time in many cars under conditons that many owners of this car have not experienced. And there is ofcourse the natural bias of being the owner of the car and arguing on the forum for said car.

The car in stock form is too soft in the rear, which does make it lag behind the sharp front end and pog around, causing instability. Personally, this was a draw for me. I like snappy cars that are a bit wild, exciting and difficult to drive. S2000 was like this (mostly do to aero), the viper is like this and older Porsches are like this. I would rather manage oversteer than understeer. The supra blew me away in this regard, a car this tail happy with this much power being solid to the public is a blessing and probably one of the last of its kind unless you have stupid money.

The supra is sharp, but it's not very communicative through the wheel. Those are separate qualities; raw speed =/= driver engagement. A part of that is a modern platform and a part of that is simply the budget constraints. In a car that talks to you about what it's doing you can get in and drive it hard right away. Well set up track cars and race cars are like this, the GT3 is like this, among other exotics. You can get in, drive it with slip angle right away because you have confidence in the feedback from the car. I do not get that from the Supra. However you do need some high performance driving experience to appreciate those qualities in communication with a car at the limit. And Im not talking about "racing" in the canyons.

Jack actually likes cars that are a bit more wild. Mark likes predictable, steady cars that are easy to drive consistently at the track. I can see why he takes some issue with the car. He's also a solid and experienced driver, a bit more so than Jack I believe. They both have extensive track experience in many, fast cars.

The supra is far from perfect and its certainly far from the best "drivers car". However it's a massive performance value proposition.

For my needs, in the 50-100k bracket there is no better sports car for the value.

This struck me as one of the few reasonable and even-keeled responses in this whole thread, so thanks for that.

Can you (or someone) help me understand what people mean when they say the Supra is too soft in the rear and that is leading to oversteer/instability? I thought the conventional wisdom if you are experiencing oversteer is to actually soften the rear or stiffen the front. What part of the corner are people having issues with (entry/apex/exit)? I have only had it on track once so far and had it in Traction Mode, so I didn't really experience any of this. Also, why are so many folks going with a square setup if it is so prone to oversteer? Wouldn't that make it worse?

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[jchadwell]

I'm with this 100%. I get annoyed whenever I see tyre swaps. Test them oem vs oem. Not oem vs almost oem...

For crying out loud. They’re tires. Consumables. They wear out and you replace them. When you do you can replace them with whatever tire you want, including the same “cheater” tires many manufacturers make an option just to inflate performance in comparisons. Swapping to a different tire does not make a car almost OEM. It’s not like they are swapping in a set of coil overs and a bigger turbo…

 

[LowRoller]

This struck me as one of the few reasonable and even-keeled responses in this whole thread, so thanks for that.

Can you (or someone) help me understand what people mean when they say the Supra is too soft in the rear and that is leading to oversteer/instability? I thought the conventional wisdom if you are experiencing oversteer is to actually soften the rear or stiffen the front. What part of the corner are people having issues with (entry/apex/exit)? I have only had it on track once so far and had it in Traction Mode, so I didn't really experience any of this. Also, why are so many folks going with a square setup if it is so prone to oversteer? Wouldn't that make it worse?

Think of it as just not the rear, but the interaction between the front and the rear; ie. the rear is too soft relative to the front. I feel it most during mid-corner undulations, the front absorbs an undulation faster than the rear, you get this front-to-rear disconnect and wiggle from the rear as the rear is trying to catch up to the front that has already settled. If you have multiple bumps through the corner it can make it even worse, like when the rear is still settling and the front gets loaded again before the rear has fully settled. Suddenly you get a lateral seesaw effect between the front and rear. The short wheelbase makes the issue more prominent as the car is quick to rotate.

For the square setup question; it's something I would not relate to the stock front/rear complaints as you would want to dial the car in for said square setup. More grip is always great, makes ordering tires, front/rear rotations convenient...etc. I wouldnt just throw a square setup on a stock car but it makes sense if you track a lot and the car is set up for it.

 

[concept]

I was re-reading one of Car and Drivers recent lightening laps and there was a car (maybe an RS3, can’t remember) that was previously run on a normal summer tire and then the next year came with optional Cup 2s ( or maybe it was Trofeo Rs, can’t remember that either) and the time difference was absolutely staggering, like almost 10 seconds faster.

Tires matter.

That was a 2022 Audi RS3

 

[Sub-MkV]

In a track setting I agree with what savagegeese and others do by having similar tire. Now in a non track setting I'd agree with the folks here who have an issue with it not being "stock tires"

 

[razorlab]

This struck me as one of the few reasonable and even-keeled responses in this whole thread, so thanks for that.

Can you (or someone) help me understand what people mean when they say the Supra is too soft in the rear and that is leading to oversteer/instability? I thought the conventional wisdom if you are experiencing oversteer is to actually soften the rear or stiffen the front. What part of the corner are people having issues with (entry/apex/exit)? I have only had it on track once so far and had it in Traction Mode, so I didn't really experience any of this. Also, why are so many folks going with a square setup if it is so prone to oversteer? Wouldn't that make it worse?

You can setup the Supra to be very stable. In fact, really stable for the short wheel base. Mine is setup like that. It's actually one of the most stable and forgiving cars I have used on track. Everyone likes cars setup differently.

Technically a softer rear and stiffer front would make the car understeer. People are confusing damper tuning with soft/hard rates. The Supra also has an alignment from the factory that trends toward oversteer to make the car more "exciting".

The bigger issue, which some have already brought up, is that the car is really numb. The bushing tuning is setup like a grand touring car, which it is. Even with suspension arm/bushing upgrades, I have learned to be proactive, not reactive. Once you learn that, everything falls into place on track. In my experience at least.

This car is nothing like a S2k. I find it funny when I hear some people making that reference.

 

[Joker328]

Technically a softer rear and stiffer front would make the car understeer. People are confusing damper tuning with soft/hard rates. The Supra also has an alignment from the factory that trends toward oversteer to make the car more "exciting".

Thanks for confirming what I was thinking after @LowRoller 's comments. It seems like the damping in the rear is maybe not quite as buttoned-up as the front, so it is more easily unsettled by bumps than the front, leading to oversteer if you are on the limit and hit a bump. I could see how that would be disconcerting and take a more capable/experienced driver to anticipate and/or respond in time to avoid a spin. I have a feeling they have tuned the ASC a bit for the '23 and beyond cars to account for this, as I haven't really noticed it as much. I'm sure it is still a handful with ASC completely off though.

 

[bk5]

The Supra also has an alignment from the factory that trends toward oversteer to make the car more "exciting".

I was blown away with the improvement a proper alignment made to this car. I took mine to a shop dedicated to setting up race cars and told them I wanted some added stability in the rear under cornering.

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