The Development Story of the MKV Supra

BMWAF

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I don't believe everything, but I do believe some things. :)
Well I don't believe the hype. Especially the Toyota has made changes to the B58 engine to make it meet their lofty standards. Either every BMW B58 since has been also given the updates or the engine was fine as is. Makes no sense for Toyota to have a slightly more reliable variant. None at all. But the fanboys continue to believe what they want lol.
 

concept

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The only thing I believe is, if Toyota makes Supra mkV by themselves, the price tag would be GT-R R35 or NSX level.
It's all about sales volume. Look at Corvettes. GM has a good idea as to how many they can sell, so their financial investment pays off. Toyota could sell more Supras than they are producing, but the history and fan base volume attached to the name is not the same. I'm certainly glad that there aren't 10 Supras in every neighborhood. :cool:
 

concept

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Well I don't believe the hype. Especially the Toyota has made changes to the B58 engine to make it meet their lofty standards. Either every BMW B58 since has been also given the updates or the engine was fine as is. Makes no sense for Toyota to have a slightly more reliable variant. None at all. But the fanboys continue to believe what they want lol.
On a smaller scale, I did work with a Japanese engineer who worked for a company that purchased oxygen concentrator components that we (the company by whom I was employed). That engineer's job when he came to the US was to verify that the product met their standards. Because it did for the most part, few changes were necessary.

That experience led me to believe that there could've been reliability changes done to BMW designs by Toyota.
A question I wonder is, " Why would the creator of this video lie/falsify information presented?"
According to Consumer Reports, BMW reliability is improving. Perhaps they did learn some Toyota "tricks" and the video is legit.
 

Zoomie

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This collaboration is likely why the B58 comes so highly rated. BMW tends to over-engineer components and designs. We have a water intercooler which is genius, but it also makes it much harder for a company like AMS or ETS to give us a simple upgrade.

Toyota has a fantastic reputation for reliability. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they took the B58 and did both destructive and non-destructive testing to improve the durability and reliability. Toyota said "great engine, what if it was also reliable?". Then BMW got it back and said "nice reliable engine, what if we traded that for even more power?" and the S58 was born :)
 

Danimal

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A question I wonder is, " Why would the creator of this video lie/falsify information presented?"
According to Consumer Reports, BMW reliability is improving. Perhaps they did learn some Toyota "tricks" and the video is legit.
I think just because people love the lore of Toyota lending an expert, benevolent hand to BMW to ‘show them the way’. I absolutely do not buy it - at least not the way it’s often told/gossiped. I do believe that, among many other vehicle-level requirements, that there was a shared reliability target for the major components. I also believe that the B58 had already demonstrated excellent reliability prior to the Supra launch and was probably an agreed-upon engine because of this. I’m sure Toyota were given lots of information on the engine and other major systems, and perhaps were engine involved in some testing and engine tear downs, etc. I just don’t believe the romantic story that they ‘fixed’ BMW’s engine for them in any way.

For reference: I am a powertrain engineer for a major automotive OEM and have been through these types of vehicle and powertrain joint development projects many, many times. I’m not at all involved in the BMW/Toyota partnership, so I’m also speculating like everyone else - just basing it on my experience and on my personality of kinda being a negative jerk. đŸ€Ł
 

razorlab

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Legend is that Toyota bought a B58 and a B46 when they were released in 2016 and spent three years taking them apart and putting them back together. Legend says they did this 5,437 times.

Toyota then randomly wrote "B58TU" and "B46D" in big letters on a whiteboard and handed it to Magna Steyr to make something cool to surround the engines that they took apart and put back together 5,437 times.

Once Magna Steyr did this and presented it back to Nobuo Nakamura, he said "okay but can we say we did anything on this project, because, we are Toyota and they are BMW". Magna Steyr decided to let Toyota and BMW say they did magical things and then the MK5 Supra was released.

Some might say, a legend reborn.
 

concept

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I think just because people love the lore of Toyota lending an expert, benevolent hand to BMW to ‘show them the way’. I absolutely do not buy it - at least not the way it’s often told/gossiped. I do believe that, among many other vehicle-level requirements, that there was a shared reliability target for the major components. I also believe that the B58 had already demonstrated excellent reliability prior to the Supra launch and was probably an agreed-upon engine because of this. I’m sure Toyota were given lots of information on the engine and other major systems, and perhaps were engine involved in some testing and engine tear downs, etc. I just don’t believe the romantic story that they ‘fixed’ BMW’s engine for them in any way.

For reference: I am a powertrain engineer for a major automotive OEM and have been through these types of vehicle and powertrain joint development projects many, many times. I’m not at all involved in the BMW/Toyota partnership, so I’m also speculating like everyone else - just basing it on my experience and on my personality of kinda being a negative jerk. đŸ€Ł
In the video, it was mentioned that the B58 was selected because it was fairly reliable to begin with. But "reliable" to Toyota is not the same as reliable to BMW which is well known for making vehicles that start having trouble, soon after the warranty expires. The Japanese engineer with whom I worked and his company would never simply accept the OEM data. This attitude is a part of Japanese culture in that, "If you don't test the changes to our standard, we will do it, ourselves because in the end, our name goes on this product."

This is why I believe the video. To what exact extent Toyota made changes, we may never know, but to believe that no changes were done does not give credence to Japanese culture.
 

concept

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Legend is that Toyota bought a B58 and a B46 when they were released in 2016 and spent three years taking them apart and putting them back together. Legend says they did this 5,437 times.

Toyota then randomly wrote "B58TU" and "B46D" in big letters on a whiteboard and handed it to Magna Steyr to make something cool to surround the engines that they took apart and put back together 5,437 times.

Once Magna Steyr did this and presented it back to Nobuo Nakamura, he said "okay but can we say we did anything on this project, because, we are Toyota and they are BMW". Magna Steyr decided to let Toyota and BMW say they did magical things and then the MK5 Supra was released.

Some might say, a legend reborn.
Legends sometimes do get blown out of proportion, but that does not mean the entirety of the legend is false. Mike Tyson is a legend. If some people say he could take 50 direct blows to his head and keep fighting, you can be fairly certain that he can take some blows, just not 50. But no one can argue that he was not a great fighter.
 

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All I know is that I have a S55 powered car in my driveway that per the community requires some hardware upgrades to the crank hub before I get to tuning it so it stays reliable and a B58 powered car in the driveway that can literally harness the power of a Stark Arc Reactor with no work.
 
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Rocksandblues

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In the video, it was mentioned that the B58 was selected because it was fairly reliable to begin with. But "reliable" to Toyota is not the same as reliable to BMW which is well known for making vehicles that start having trouble, soon after the warranty expires. The Japanese engineer with whom I worked and his company would never simply accept the OEM data. This attitude is a part of Japanese culture in that, "If you don't test the changes to our standard, we will do it, ourselves because in the end, our name goes on this product."

This is why I believe the video. To what exact extent Toyota made changes, we may never know, but to believe that no changes were done does not give credence to Japanese culture.
bmw is ranked very highly in reliability.
 

Danimal

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In the video, it was mentioned that the B58 was selected because it was fairly reliable to begin with. But "reliable" to Toyota is not the same as reliable to BMW which is well known for making vehicles that start having trouble, soon after the warranty expires. The Japanese engineer with whom I worked and his company would never simply accept the OEM data. This attitude is a part of Japanese culture in that, "If you don't test the changes to our standard, we will do it, ourselves because in the end, our name goes on this product."

This is why I believe the video. To what exact extent Toyota made changes, we may never know, but to believe that no changes were done does not give credence to Japanese culture.
Ah, so you’re in to the romanticism of the lore. Got it.
 
 




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