The Development Story of the MKV Supra

[BMWAF]

No, I have experience that suggests at least some of the video is factual.

The bit where it's monetized. Yeah, I agree.

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[Richard Truman]

On a smaller scale, I did work with a Japanese engineer who worked for a company that purchased oxygen concentrator components that we (the company by whom I was employed). That engineer's job when he came to the US was to verify that the product met their standards. Because it did for the most part, few changes were necessary.

That experience led me to believe that there could've been reliability changes done to BMW designs by Toyota.
A question I wonder is, " Why would the creator of this video lie/falsify information presented?"
According to Consumer Reports, BMW reliability is improving. Perhaps they did learn some Toyota "tricks" and the video is legit.

ALSO Toyoto states that there starters after 364 thousand self starts will throw trouble code on dash . Never heard this from BMW. That should tell ya something

 

[GRMan]

BMW.s warranty on the powertrain prior to Nov 2022 was 3 years

Toyota's 7 years warranty on the powertrain started Jan 2019.

Of course, Toyota would request BMW to make upgrades to the B58 to meet its warranty obligation!

The fact that once Toyota laid down the performance specifications (including the warranty coverage), BMW have to make changes on the powertrain to meet the engineering requirements. This is the context on how Toyota had forced BMW to make changes.

The design requirement on the Supra from Toyota was that it has to be competitive to a Porsche Cayman in driving dynamics. This initiative pushed BMW out of their comfort zone because they have never designed and engineered a car at that level in driving dynamics. It is not just a straight-line acceleration (as so many street bois would swear by) metrics fulfilment.

Since being competitive to a Cayman was the core requirement, everything had to be designed and engineered around that goal. Hence the 50:50 weight distribution, short wheelbase and wide track to achieve the goldilocks 1.55 ratio. A stock power Supra on 200TW tires, harder springs and aero mods is super competitive on track was the result of the realisation of Toyota's primary performance goal on the Supra.

The project started in 2013 and the car came out in 2019. The development time was around twice as long as Toyota's average development time on a car.

 

[concept]

BMW.s warranty on the powertrain prior to Nov 2022 was 3 years

Toyota's 7 years warranty on the powertrain started Jan 2019.

Of course, Toyota would request BMW to make upgrades to the B58 to meet its warranty obligation!

The fact that once Toyota laid down the performance specifications (including the warranty coverage), BMW have to make changes on the powertrain to meet the engineering requirements. This is the context on how Toyota had forced BMW to make changes.

The design requirement on the Supra from Toyota was that it has to be competitive to a Porsche Cayman in driving dynamics. This initiative pushed BMW out of their comfort zone because they have never designed and engineered a car at that level in driving dynamics. It is not just a straight-line acceleration (as so many street bois would swear by) metrics fulfilment.

Since being competitive to a Cayman was the core requirement, everything had to be designed and engineered around that goal. Hence the 50:50 weight distribution, short wheelbase and wide track to achieve the goldilocks 1.55 ratio. A stock power Supra on 200TW tires, harder springs and aero mods is super competitive on track was the result of the realisation of Toyota's primary performance goal on the Supra.

The project started in 2013 and the car came out in 2019. The development time was around twice as long as Toyota's average development time on a car.

This certainly makes sense.

 

[BMWAF]

BMW.s warranty on the powertrain prior to Nov 2022 was 3 years
Toyota's 7 years warranty on the powertrain started Jan 2019.

Of course, Toyota would request BMW to make upgrades to the B58 to meet its warranty obligation!

Here in Australia BMW went to a 5 year warranty on ALL VEHICLES, including MINIs. Your reasoning suggests that only the B58 models have had a warranty upgrade because Toyota. This is false. The bean counters at BMW chose 5 years; Toyota's bean counting department chose 7. Hyundai offer 10 for comparison. Nothing to see here.

Also - and I am no expert - but my understanding is that even before it was put in the Supra, the B58 was considered a very reliable engine. You know, before Toyota fixed it to make it even more reliable.

The fact that once Toyota laid down the performance specifications (including the warranty coverage), BMW have to make changes on the powertrain to meet the engineering requirements. This is the context on how Toyota had forced BMW to make changes.

The design requirement on the Supra from Toyota was that it has to be competitive to a Porsche Cayman in driving dynamics. This initiative pushed BMW out of their comfort zone because they have never designed and engineered a car at that level in driving dynamics. It is not just a straight-line acceleration (as so many street bois would swear by) metrics fulfilment.

Since being competitive to a Cayman was the core requirement, everything had to be designed and engineered around that goal. Hence the 50:50 weight distribution, short wheelbase and wide track to achieve the goldilocks 1.55 ratio. A stock power Supra on 200TW tires, harder springs and aero mods is super competitive on track was the result of the realisation of Toyota's primary performance goal on the Supra.

Meh. More marketing spin. The Cayman was the benchmark, that's all. All manufacturers set benchmarks. Our happened to be a Porsche.

Like all consumer grade cars, the Supra is a car full of compromises and unsurprisingly, all the things you mention are just things that weren't compromised. Remember the FT-1? Clearly Toyota compromised the geometry and allowed BMW to dictate what the chassis hardpoints would be. And not the other way around!

The project started in 2013 and the car came out in 2019. The development time was around twice as long as Toyota's average development time on a car.

This isn't necessarily supportive evidence. We don't know why the development time was increased, although I believe that the linked video suggested there was a huge language barrier - which incidentally might go some way to explain how we got stuck with some of the more profoundly idiotic design choices in our cars.

Look.. I'm not saying Toyota didn't play a pivotal role - they obviously did. I'm even willing to concede they tore down some engines and ran some tests. What I see no evidence of is Toyota having actually improved already proven BMW technology. My bet would be that Toyota just chose wisely in selecting the B58 and then through careful testing confirmed their choice.

Toyota wanted to make a car that met their targets on a budget and for the most part I think they succeeded. Interestingly, I don't think they've ever flat out come out and said that, despite it being bleedingly obvious. "We partnered with BMW because they make nice, well performing cars and we needed financial support to bring the Supra back, considering our price and performance benchmarks."

What I am driving at is that most of what we read from Toyota PR - or their YouTube mouthpieces - is just marketing spin sprinkled with fanboy circle jerks. After all, this is the company that told us the fake vents in our cars were "functional" if you just remove them.. Never forget.

This certainly makes sense.

You really should look up confirmation bias. And maybe FIGJAM while you're at it.

 

[DEupra]

No, I have experience that suggests at least some of the video is factual.

Too bad Toyota didn’t have a hand in fixing your leaking diff.

 

[FLtrackdays]

I just thought it was a lighter, cheaper Z4 with a hardtop

 

[Rocksandblues]

BMW.s warranty on the powertrain prior to Nov 2022 was 3 years

Toyota's 7 years warranty on the powertrain started Jan 2019.

Of course, Toyota would request BMW to make upgrades to the B58 to meet its warranty obligation!

The fact that once Toyota laid down the performance specifications (including the warranty coverage), BMW have to make changes on the powertrain to meet the engineering requirements. This is the context on how Toyota had forced BMW to make changes.

The design requirement on the Supra from Toyota was that it has to be competitive to a Porsche Cayman in driving dynamics. This initiative pushed BMW out of their comfort zone because they have never designed and engineered a car at that level in driving dynamics. It is not just a straight-line acceleration (as so many street bois would swear by) metrics fulfilment.

Since being competitive to a Cayman was the core requirement, everything had to be designed and engineered around that goal. Hence the 50:50 weight distribution, short wheelbase and wide track to achieve the goldilocks 1.55 ratio. A stock power Supra on 200TW tires, harder springs and aero mods is super competitive on track was the result of the realisation of Toyota's primary performance goal on the Supra.

The project started in 2013 and the car came out in 2019. The development time was around twice as long as Toyota's average development time on a car.

Except you make sound like BMW hadn't been able to make a good handling car with out Toyota's help. The M series, going back decades, has been a track and handling benchmark. In fact The M3 has been THE benchmark for countless manufacturers and testing.
The m3 drives circles around any Cayman in the same bracket. Always has.

No doubt the Supra has been a glorious product produced by a joint venture.

 

[concept]

Here in Australia BMW went to a 5 year warranty on ALL VEHICLES, including MINIs. Your reasoning suggests that only the B58 models have had a warranty upgrade because Toyota. This is false. The bean counters at BMW chose 5 years; Toyota's bean counting department chose 7. Hyundai offer 10 for comparison. Nothing to see here.

Also - and I am no expert - but my understanding is that even before it was put in the Supra, the B58 was considered a very reliable engine. You know, before Toyota fixed it to make it even more reliable.



Meh. More marketing spin. The Cayman was the benchmark, that's all. All manufacturers set benchmarks. Our happened to be a Porsche.

Like all consumer grade cars, the Supra is a car full of compromises and unsurprisingly, all the things you mention are just things that weren't compromised. Remember the FT-1? Clearly Toyota compromised the geometry and allowed BMW to dictate what the chassis hardpoints would be. And not the other way around!



This isn't necessarily supportive evidence. We don't know why the development time was increased, although I believe that the linked video suggested there was a huge language barrier - which incidentally might go some way to explain how we got stuck with some of the more profoundly idiotic design choices in our cars.

Look.. I'm not saying Toyota didn't play a pivotal role - they obviously did. I'm even willing to concede they tore down some engines and ran some tests. What I see no evidence of is Toyota having actually improved already proven BMW technology. My bet would be that Toyota just chose wisely in selecting the B58 and then through careful testing confirmed their choice.

Toyota wanted to make a car that met their targets on a budget and for the most part I think they succeeded. Interestingly, I don't think they've ever flat out come out and said that, despite it being bleedingly obvious. "We partnered with BMW because they make nice, well performing cars and we needed financial support to bring the Supra back, considering our price and performance benchmarks."

What I am driving at is that most of what we read from Toyota PR - or their YouTube mouthpieces - is just marketing spin sprinkled with fanboy circle jerks. After all, this is the company that told us the fake vents in our cars were "functional" if you just remove them.. Never forget.



You really should look up confirmation bias. And maybe FIGJAM while you're at it.

You may be conveniently forgetting this guy:
Yes, there were some language issues, but thankfully, Masayuki was very well versed with the German language.

 

[jtsang25]

You may be conveniently forgetting this guy:
Yes, there were some language issues, but thankfully, Masayuki was very well versed with the German language.

It's called marketing.... they also said when first released that strut braces would be left for the after market and since then have released two versions as oem parts....

 

[BMWAF]

You may be conveniently forgetting this guy:
Yes, there were some language issues, but thankfully, Masayuki was very well versed with the German language.

Holy shit! You're right. In your few carefully selected words you have completely and utterly destroyed my entire argument. I have no counterpoints. You are again correct. I can't believe I didn't see it earlier.

 

[jtsang25]

You may be conveniently forgetting this guy:
Yes, there were some language issues, but thankfully, Masayuki was very well versed with the German language.

Your words lack quite a bit of weight. You're the same person from your diff leak situation that believes supra techs are actually knowledgeable about our cars and can diagnose issues on our cars because they're "trained" to be supra techs (one day training course). Same as these media videos (probably read a 2 page media brief).

So what's the diagnosis on your diff.

 

[concept]

I just thought it was a lighter, cheaper Z4 with a hardtop

The BMW fanboys love to think so. I used to work with a German EE (who formerly worked for Audi in Germany). One day there was a discussion going on among some of the car guy engineers in that department. One was saying that he had previously owned a VW diesel Rabbit that was the least reliable car he had ever owned. (Actually, his description was that the VW was a piece of sh*t.)
The German engineering manager overheard that comment and became visibly agitated as he said that German vehicles are most likely the most reliable in the world.

A few weeks later I saw this same manager driving into the parking lot with a Toyota Camry.......

 

[razorlab]

The BMW fanboys love to think so. I used to work with a German EE (who formerly worked for Audi in Germany). One day there was a discussion going on among some of the car guy engineers in that department. One was saying that he had previously owned a VW diesel Rabbit that was the least reliable car he had ever owned. (Actually, his description was that the VW was a piece of sh*t.)
The German engineering manager overheard that comment and became visibly agitated as he said that German vehicles are most likely the most reliable in the world.

A few weeks later I saw this same manager driving into the parking lot with a Toyota Camry.......

Anyone else see the irony here with this guy constantly spouting off that Toyota made a German car more reliable while at the same time constantly whaambulancing about the leaking differential in his BMW?

 

[jtsang25]

They also said vents can be functional. Which can be after lots of cutting and body work (especially the door). Haven't seen anyone attempt this, have you?

Also on the topic of standards. Takata air bag issues, did those meet toyota standards? What about the Daihatsu emission falsification scandal.

Toyota can and will say whatever to sell a product and create a story.

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