Toyota "Preparing" Hotter Supra GRMN, Says Chief Engineer

[Bryster]

That has been the million dollar question....that and cost. I have been trying to get my source to tell me, but all he is saying is “save up and be ready, it will be expensive and won’t be as attainable.” The way I decipher this is that because of the “alpha” cars limited production, they will not only be expensive (not supercar expensive) but also scarse at dealerships (i.e., each dealer may be allotted one or something) marking them up even more. Again, this is my hypothesis on the topic based on the limited info on pricing and availability.

Would 95K be a good estimate?

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[Jeff Lange]

The Celica Supra was from 1979-1986, the Supra became its own model in 1986. The 15th anniversary model was, as was stated, a USA-only thing that Toyota USA decided would be a good idea. It didn't come that way from the factory, they just had some stickers made up and threw them on the car. It was the 15th anniversary of the second generation Supra (which wasn't really a second generation, since it was the 3rd generation Celica really...)

In Japan, it was called the Celica XX until 1985 and then the Supra starting in 1986.

Any way you look at it, it doesn't make sense.

Jeff

 

[PerformanceSound]

The Celica Supra was from 1979-1986, the Supra became its own model in 1986. The 15th anniversary model was, as was stated, a USA-only thing that Toyota USA decided would be a good idea. It didn't come that way from the factory, they just had some stickers made up and threw them on the car. It was the 15th anniversary of the second generation Supra (which wasn't really a second generation, since it was the 3rd generation Celica really...)

In Japan, it was called the Celica XX until 1985 and then the Supra starting in 1986.

Any way you look at it, it doesn't make sense.

Jeff

Yep...

 

[Supra21]

The Celica Supra was from 1979-1986, the Supra became its own model in 1986. The 15th anniversary model was, as was stated, a USA-only thing that Toyota USA decided would be a good idea. It didn't come that way from the factory, they just had some stickers made up and threw them on the car. It was the 15th anniversary of the second generation Supra (which wasn't really a second generation, since it was the 3rd generation Celica really...)

In Japan, it was called the Celica XX until 1985 and then the Supra starting in 1986.

Any way you look at it, it doesn't make sense.

Jeff

Whoops!...was just a thought to add to our curiosity!

 

[PerformanceSound]

Would 95K be a good estimate?

I truly don’t know the cost....or when it will be available. This is what I want to know as well. I don’t think it will be stupid expensive from Toyota, I believe it will be stupid expensive when dealers start price gouging. It’s the nature of the business. Look what Ford was doing with the Shelby GT350 and GT350R’s.

 

[A70TTR]

@PerformanceSound @A70TTR

Just a thought...the Alpha cars' production may be some time away to give room for the A90 to have its exposure to the market.
I was thinking...the last time there was a special edition Supra, it was in 1997 for the 15th anniversary...the next monumental anniversary is its 40th year which would be in 2022!
Do you think the Alpha car may be released in 2022 as a limited edition run for the Supra's 40th Anniversary?!

It's possible, but that anniversary edition Supra was a marketing gimmick by Toyota USA lol.

EDIT: saw all the responses after the page updated.

 

[KahnBB6]

Regarding the equivalent tuneability of the old 2JZ versus the new Alpha engine, I'd say if in *stock* form they at least match 700whp holding capability then they'll be in the ballpark.

Someone a few pages back mentioned that Tada has been testing a 700hp (whp?) MKV which I assume isn't meant for production but just to see how far the stock engine can be pushed before the rotating assembly needs even stronger aftermarket hardware. IF that's a true piece of information.

I just recently built from the ground up, down to the OEM bolts and OEM bearings, a 100% stock to original spec USDM 2JZGTE with the sole exceptions being ARP rod bolts and ARP head bolts and the engine harness being converted for my car. The pistons, rings, and connecting rods are all factory Toyota for the TT.

I understand this configuration to have been good for 500whp without the ARP rod bolts but with them this engine as configured should be good for 700whp. Not the stock turbos or stock fuel system which are good to about 450whp, just the engine itself based on strength alone. And the fully built transmission I have is good for 700-750whp before it breaks.

I'm not going to use nearly all of that capacity but for mostly just the OEM parts that's pretty damn good. Now I don't know how many years it would last AT 650-700whp as configured versus the mere 350whp I have mine at but that's a consistently touted figure.

If Tada has an MKV engine configuration capable of matching that before far beefier aftermarket components are needed in a fully built engine then I think they're doing something quite right.

To be clear, I'm not talking about any BPU tuning for an MKV, just the ultimate ceiling of the Alpha engine in *stock* form. 700whp power *holding* capability (not its actual showroom rated horsepower) would be a very good target to hit in the production Alpha model... since that would pretty much match the stock strength of the 2JZGTE if you just used stronger ARP head bolts and rod bolts (and have the machine shop machine those rod caps for the stronger bolts so as not to cause any deformation around the bearings and crank journal).

Tada already said on the record that in his opinion the 2JZ engine being as ridiculously strong as it was had a lot more to do with overbuilding for reliability than the horsepower ceilings they have become known for today when heavily modified for four figure horsepower. In his words the hilarious strength was "a byproduct" of the over-engineering than anything intentional. Although they did fully intend the engines to handle 500whp all day long in racing trims.

But that he's pushed for a similar amount of strength or close to it is impressive to me. What I'll be very interested in a few days from now is just how much of that strength and cylinder head breathing will trickle down into the more common Supra GR I-6 engines.

 

[93Siro]

Regarding the equivalent tuneability of the old 2JZ versus the new Alpha engine, I'd say if in *stock* form they at least match 700whp holding capability then they'll be in the ballpark.

Current whp record:

 

[justbake]

Current whp record:

650 is impressive for a 6164.
I wish they would show RPM instead of MPH though

 

[Modal170]

So if I want 1000, I need putin himself to whisper to the BMW to unlock its glory?

 

[Death666wish_]

If the bottom end is the same on the base I6 I think we'd be golden, turbos and boltons would already be changing anyway, just add heads to the base that the GRMN already has. If the block's are different then who knows, 650 is more than enough anyway, but not for internet glory.

So if I want 1000, I need putin himself to whisper to the BMW to unlock its glory?

Yes but it has to be a lover's whisper.

 

[A70TTR]

The test was 700chp, but it was shown to be as reliable at that 600whp+ mark as it is in stock form what I understand.

The actual ceiling of the B58 bottom end is likely quite a bit higher.

I have had friends in the mid 800s and one even went low 900s stock bottom 2jz (cams, fuel, headstuds, turbo, standalone) , but they are a time bomb at that level. The 900+ unit still made that for a couple years though before bending a rod.

I could see B58 making it up close enough in terms of relative reliability vs holding limit.

 

[PerformanceSound]

Why I believe big HP will be made easily and quickly with the MKV Supra. For the sake of argument, let's use the B58 engine:

- Aftermarket. The aftermarket is ready and prepared for development of parts for the platform. We are in 2019 not 1999....aftermarket companies have invested millions in R&D teams, prototyping equipment, and manufacturing. Products can be mocked up, tested, manufactured, and sold in weeks nowadays. The aftermarket has learned ALOT about tuning and product development in the past 10yrs if not more. Anyone thinking that "warranties" will hold back the aftermarket from producing big HP components for the MKV must be dreaming.

- Demand. Just because B58's haven't been running around with 1000hp doesn't mean they are not capable. It simply means there isn't as high of a demand for that kind of power in the vehicles that have that engine today...therefore, the aftermarket does not want to invest in much for the platform if there is not a high demand. The 2JZ would not be where it is at without the HUGE support of the aftermarket brought on by HUGE demand....we all know this. Now, plug in the MKV in the equation...ITS A NEW SUPRA!!!

- Toyota using a BMW motor. I was completely against the idea of a non-Toyota and non-Japanese engine in a Supra. Sacrilegious right?? Well, why??? BMW's haven't been known for having stellar reliability records, we can all agree on this. However, if you look at the "failures" closely, they are almost always related to some minor component that failed causing bigger issues. For example, we don't hear about broken pistons and rods in BMW motors, we hear bearing failures and sprocket issues that lead to bigger failures. This is where I believe Toyota has been focusing the most on, the "failure points" of otherwise really good engines....like, 2JZ good engines. BMW has been in the inline six game way longer than anyone...I believe their weakness has always been cost cutting from suppliers (i.e., crappy bearings, crappy rings, etc...). If Toyota rectifies these issues using their tried-and-true methodologies along with potentially their own components, I see absolutely no reason why the MKV won't be incredibly capable of 1000hp.

BMW motors have always had a niche market for performance....look at their offerings from Euro companies. Nothing compared to what the Japanese market has to offer. Imagine when those Japanese companies get a hold of a MKV Supra. This is not considering the "alpha" cars....those will be a whole different level.

Not trying to stir any pots btw, so please keep any childish comments to yourself.

 

[justbake]

The test was 700chp, but it was shown to be as reliable at that 600whp+ mark as it is in stock form what I understand.

The actual ceiling of the B58 bottom end is likely quite a bit higher.

I have had friends in the mid 800s and one even went low 900s stock bottom 2jz (cams, fuel, headstuds, turbo, standalone) , but they are a time bomb at that level. The 900+ unit still made that for a couple years though before bending a rod.

I could see B58 making it up close enough in terms of relative reliability vs holding limit.

It will interesting to see how much better (or worse) the B58TU is compared to the B58

 

[justbake]

.

Not to mention two tuning cultures, Euro and JDM, will be combined thus doubling the performance R&D

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