Toyota "Preparing" Hotter Supra GRMN, Says Chief Engineer

tyavuz

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New Supra is great and all but i think many of us are waiting the hear about GRMN version. Because the standard one, -even with the updated engine for 2021 - has missed some points to be the porsche beater or becoming a benchmark rwd coupe. Don't get me wrong i am not a porsche fan either, i always prefer front engine rwd car with good engine and usual coupe design to other configurations.
But for me the points Toyota missed the jackpots are :

- Car is too heavy for a 2 seater coupe with short wheelbase. Even this car has a bespoke chassis, so i personally don't get it.
-There is too little Toyota involvement in it. There should have been more contribution from Toyota to the places that matters.
-Also on the handling side, they couldn't get it to level of cayman according to critics. Even toyota 86 often phrased greatest driver's car, so that we know that Toyota can do a car to rival cayman's handling. But in this case Toyota seems like positioned the supra like a gt car which is reasonable. But if that's the case, maybe targeting the cayman was a mistake because of the handling characterics are different.
-Brakes are doesn't scream as sports car, especially the rear brakes.

From my point of view, these points are the ones that needed to be fixed and hoping to see these on the GRMN version.

As an enthusiast i think they should nail below points with GRMN version to be the benchmark sports car :

- Weight should be considerably lowered with grmn. They needed to make it around 1400 kg to be competitive. As far as i know the lightest 3.0 liter supra is 1495 kg in japanese market so there is much a lot of weight to be shed. Using carbonfibre, deleting sound insulation and removing some of the luxuries as electric seats will be a start.
-There should be fiddling by toyota on the engine side. I don't think putting S58 engine to grmn won't gonna put an end to the claims that it is a rebadged BMW. Maybe taking base b58 and swapping for stronger forged internals and putting bigger turbo will make a good start. I think they should consider putting D-4S injection system both for cooling and reliability purposes and also it provides more fuel flow. And to be a special engine i think it should be rev a little bit more. Updating the head with more rev happy cams, springs etc will be better. 7500 revs will be enough to make everyone excited. For sure putting the bigger turbo make turbo lag worse, so i think lower revs can be supported by electric supercharger ( i know toyota has a patent regarding this) . This kind of updates to the engine can differantiate grmn from being parts bin bmw performance car. Spec wise, 430+ hp and around 600 nm torque will be more than enough.
-Bigger breaks will be no brainer with the grmn version.
-Handling wise, if they can pull the lower weight target, i think toyota can make the car handle as good as porsche cayman gt4.
-Better aero with deleting most of the fake vents will be better i think. Also nice little spoiler needs to be added without destroying the cars design.
-At last, if they will use zf8 for the grmn, they better be provide much faster upshifts, downshifts by reprogramming the gearbox. Its not mandatory for my side but offering the manual option for the grmn will make the car even more special. And we can be sure that every motoring journalist will be praising the supra is one of the last pure sports cars if this happens.

I didn't notice how long my comment was before ending it. Sorry if its hard to read.
As a summary, these are actually my expectations from toyota to make the grmn version a special car.
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kappa_md

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Just look at the Supra GT4 specs. Most of what youā€™ve mentioned are already there. Itā€™s the closest to a production Supra GRMN.

** also ā€œpraised / praisingā€
 

tyavuz

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Just look at the Supra GT4 specs. Most of what youā€™ve mentioned are already there. Itā€™s the closest to a production Supra GRMN.

** also ā€œpraised / praisingā€
Surely, Supra Gt4 specs are great but its basically a racecar. If i recall correctly there was 100 kg difference between roadgoing cayman gt4 and cayman gt4 clubsport track car. So if Supra Grmn will add 100 kg to gt4 this will make grmn 1450 kg and i don't think its still considerable as lightweight but its close to cayman. I hope toyota will do better job than porsche on keeping the weight down.
Regarding the power figures, i wonder if its just boosted up b58 or are there some interesting news for us under the bonnet. For that , we all gonna find out together when its announced.

Considering the latest works of the Gazoo Racing ( yaris grmn and new gr yaris), looks like Supra GRMN will be very exciting car and give Cayman Gt4 a hard time. Also maybe that's why porsche is working on the RS version of cayman gt4 for the first time (as seen on the latest spy shots on nurburgring).
Maybe years later, this oncoming rivalry become a legendary one like the one between evo and sti. Who knows.
Good times to be a petrolhead..
 

A70TTR

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GRMN target weight is 50-70kg heavier than the GT4.

The reason the cars are always heavier than they're supposed to be when they go on sale is because the marketing and sales people add a bunch of crap to the cars (i.e. 12way adjustable seats, 8-10 speaker sound systems, and other nonsense). This also drives the price up...
 

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GRMN target weight is 50-70kg heavier than the GT4.

The reason the cars are always heavier than they're supposed to be when they go on sale is because the marketing and sales people add a bunch of crap to the cars (i.e. 12way adjustable seats, 8-10 speaker sound systems, and other nonsense). This also drives the price up...
I agree with sir @A70TTR. GRMN is like Supra GT4 but road legal. Slotted in between the Supra 3.0L and the Supra GT4. If you notice, GRMN is not just about more power, but refinement, balance, driver focus, more lightweight, less comfort creatures etc..this entails added cost given this will be a limited production run. I never dreamnt of having a GRMN because of the insane price but this is the direction Iā€™d like to take. Yes great time to be a car enthusiast! Iā€™m grateful for Toyota for doing this and pushing exciting cars despite of all the restrictions, emissions, social media rant, ROI, sales etc. We ended up with two sports cars (Supra & Z4) instead of none. Very similar story previously (86 & BRZ) which was a huge success IMHO. Without Toyota, Subaru wonā€™t definitely venture into it alone. People are generally more about criticisms and less appreciative. Why canā€™t we just be thankful right? Still grateful that we get to have and experience great Toyota sports car nowadays whether you agree with me or not. Cheers!
 
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tyavuz

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GRMN target weight is 50-70kg heavier than the GT4.

The reason the cars are always heavier than they're supposed to be when they go on sale is because the marketing and sales people add a bunch of crap to the cars (i.e. 12way adjustable seats, 8-10 speaker sound systems, and other nonsense). This also drives the price up...
This is good news. It would be perfect if they can hit 50 kg - 70 kg target and make car 1400/1420 kg. If so the car will be a monster along with the additional power.

Also i forgot to mention it ealier, i hope they can design a new bespoke steering wheel for GRMN version. the base one is alright but it isn't actually saying track car when you look at it.

Anyway, sincere thanks for the valuable info
 

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I just want to see the aero it gets. I'm excited see an official TRD rear wing.
 

Dannyvandelft

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Has ZF stopped producing 6MT transmissions? I looked on their site and only see 7MT transmissions. Also, the 7MT shares architecture with the 7DCT.

GRMN with the option for 7DCT or 7MT perhaps?

https://www.zf.com/products/en/cars/productfinder/driveline.html?filterLang=en
They're definitely not putting a manual in the car that's supposed to be faster. Better chance would be to get a manual in the regular 3.0 before the GRMN gets it. If ever. Simple truth is performance numbers sells more cars than manuals do. That's why the C8 Corvette doesn't even get one. And if I'm not mistaken, neither does the newest Cayman GT4. It's just outdated tech. Sure there's people complaining that want a manual, but they're vastly outnumbered by people who don't care, or who would buy the auto/DCT version of a car because of the better performance.
Look at the GT-R. It's 11 years old, never had a manual.
 

justbake

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They're definitely not putting a manual in the car that's supposed to be faster. Better chance would be to get a manual in the regular 3.0 before the GRMN gets it. If ever. Simple truth is performance numbers sells more cars than manuals do. That's why the C8 Corvette doesn't even get one. And if I'm not mistaken, neither does the newest Cayman GT4. It's just outdated tech. Sure there's people complaining that want a manual, but they're vastly outnumbered by people who don't care, or who would buy the auto/DCT version of a car because of the better performance.
Look at the GT-R. It's 11 years old, never had a manual.
Ironically the GT4 only comes in a manual and is slower in real world straight line speeds than the S and former GTS with PDK.

But I am not here to argue about performance or tech, solely about the option of one. Currently BMW doesn't have a manual transmission for the B58C/B58D. The new G80 M3 has been confirmed to come in a manual though, but with no current 6MTs and ZF no longer advertising such, would the M3 have a 7MT and would other B58C/B58D/S58 models have access to that transmission?
 

Dannyvandelft

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Ironically the GT4 only comes in a manual and is slower in real world straight line speeds than the S and former GTS with PDK.

But I am not here to argue about performance or tech, solely about the option of one. Currently BMW doesn't have a manual transmission for the B58C/B58D. The new G80 M3 has been confirmed to come in a manual though, but with no current 6MTs and ZF no longer advertising such, would the M3 have a 7MT and would other B58C/B58D/S58 models have access to that transmission?
The difference is the M3/4 isn't a halo car. The Supra is. If BMW puts a manual in their M8 Competition that would be comparable since both cars are flagships.

Edit: just looked up the GT4, I had no idea it was manual only lol. But there's talk of a GT4 RS coming. I wonder if that will be PDK only.
 

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The difference is the M3/4 isn't a halo car. The Supra is. If BMW puts a manual in their M8 Competition that would be comparable since both cars are flagships.
I don't think being a Halo car has to do with anything. You could say the STI and CTR are halo cars as well and they come with manuals. The M8 doesn't come in a manual because it a GT car, not because it is a halo car.
 

Dannyvandelft

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I don't think being a Halo car has to do with anything. You could say the STI and CTR are halo cars as well and they come with manuals. The M8 doesn't come in a manual because it a GT car, not because it is a halo car.
Good points. But I think the new STI will have a DCT/auto coming in the new one. It's getting slaughtered in performance. And as far as Honda goes, the NSX is the halo car, which doesn't have a manual.
I think the 4 cylinder Supra should at least have a manual option. There's no reason not to.
 

justbake

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Good points. But I think the new STI will have a DCT/auto coming in the new one. It's getting slaughtered in performance. And as far as Honda goes, the NSX is the halo car, which doesn't have a manual.
I think the 4 cylinder Supra should at least have a manual option. There's no reason not to.
If the NSX is the halo car to all of Honda, then the LC500 is Toyota's halo car
 

Dannyvandelft

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If the NSX is the halo car to all of Honda, then the LC500 is Toyota's halo car
Just thought the same thing :rofl:

Although is the LC500 sold as a Toyota anywhere like the NSX is a Honda? I'm not sure.
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