Toyota Supra to be launched in 2019 under Gazoo performance brand GR / GRMN related topics

[DevonK]

why go down this path? not sure how having less gears, especially in an autobox, in a performance car can be less of a risk? if we get only an automatic, the closer the ratio and more gears the better. considering your wishes on the 86's auto rev for a manual trans and acknowledging folks who find it tedious to press one click for a gear change, it sounds like you really don't like putting in work to drive a car lol

Lol. Just passing on what other people have reported about the ZF 8 for consideration, I've no experience with paddle shifting an 8 speed myself so I don't know how I'd like it. I did test drive an 86 for 20 minutes using paddle shifting; it felt a bit weird and game-like, as if I was driving a racing sim, and I appreciated the return to manual shifting when I got back in my own car. Whether longer exposure would make paddle shifting more acceptable to me I can't say at this point.

As to auto revmatch, guilty as charged, loved it when I tried it on a Camaro. IMO it strikes a good compromise for urban driving, reducing the burden of getting around in that environment while still maintaining nearly all of the engagement of a traditional manual. YMMV.

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[K_Phamo]

From what I have seen on Bimmerpost, it's not the paddles per se that are an issue for some - it's the fact that they are hooked to an 8 speed box. Having so many gears means you are constantly shifting (especially on a car that accelerates quickly), and several posters with ZF-8s there have commented that doing so manually gets tedious after a while and they wind up leaving it in auto mode most of the time. That would be far less of a risk if the auto was only a 6 speed.

If I recall correctly, Motor Trend did a review of a car with the ZF-8 transmission and commented that the first 6 gears act like conventional gearing while 7th and 8th gears are more for fuel efficiency when in auto. I'll look into double checking it tonight, but if that's true, it seems that we wouldn't/shouldn't be rowing through gears as quickly and often when using the paddles.

EDIT: I was wrong, sorry. The review was about the Lexus LC500's 10 speed auto transmission.

The host makes some interesting points though. Would you rather have close gearing for spirited driving, the draw backs being it can get tedious with the paddles, or a set up like 5/6 close gears and the remaining for fuel efficiency/cruising which can be boring or wasteful of the extra gears? Seems like BMW has their transmission set up like the former, while Lexus has theirs set up like the latter.

 

[Haros]

I tend to agree here with Haros, I think overall for cars built today with manuals they are less than 10% of the market and trending down. I love manuals myself, and my two 300zx twin turbos and g35 and other cars were manuals. However, as a daily driver, traffic in most big cities sucks making them a pain...not saying you cant do it and some will, but I think manufacturers want to appeal to highest % of buyers....In a perfect world if I could own two cars and only drive the manual on say weekends that would be ideal but not reality...its a compromise and a choice people will have to make...Todays DCTs are fantastic which helps but its not the same for sure...

Lol I just can't help but be reminded of vancouver and new west when I think of manuals

 

[gymratter]

Nah. Manuals can suck it in stop and go traffic. 1st 2nd 1st 2nd 1st 2nd....

A true DCT is a fucking marvel of engineering.
I highly suggest you guys go test drive a 718 or a 911. It's free. You'll complete change your opinion on it.

The internet is notorious for hating DCTs and praising manuals, yet sales numbers say otherwise.

I'm all for manuals existing. A back country road with no one else really makes it shine and enjoyable. But that's not realistic everyday driving for many of us and the ability to go into to auto when i go to the city is very attractive.

That's my personal opinion though.

i was thinking the same thing, but didn't want to get flamed on lol.

 

[Craigy]

1st - always love the strange google translation.

2nd - $90k++ for the GR model? Sounds like a BMW CS car, slight bump in performance and 50% more price. Pretty lame. And I somehow doubt we'll get the car here in the states. Double lame. But hey at least we've got a good idea that it exists. That's better than nothing.

3rd - Yeah DCT is the only way to fly. "Paddle shift" in a slushbox automatic, I don't care how good these ZF boxes are, can't hold a candle. Sure the shift itself might be quick, but it comes a half a second to a full second after you pull the paddle. Chevy was pimping their paddle shift auto in the C7 hard, and all the reviews were disappointing. Even the ancient single-clutch setups like Ferrari's F1 and Lambo E-gear are leaps and bounds better, with crisp instant shifts.

3rd.5 - What's even stranger about the auto-only reports is that it's for such a low powered car. Usually when the power is down, they throw in a manual box so you have something fun to do to distract you from how slow the car is.

I'M WAITING ON THE GR SUPER SPORT.

 

[DevonK]

If I recall correctly, Motor Trend did a review of a car with the ZF-8 transmission and commented that the first 6 gears act like conventional gearing while 7th and 8th gears are more for fuel efficiency when in auto. I'll look into double checking it tonight, but if that's true, it seems that we wouldn't/shouldn't be rowing through gears as quickly and often when using the paddles.

EDIT: I was wrong, sorry. The review was about the Lexus LC500's 10 speed auto transmission.

The host makes some interesting points though. Would you rather have close gearing for spirited driving, the draw backs being it can get tedious with the paddles, or a set up like 5/6 close gears and the remaining for fuel efficiency/cruising which can be boring or wasteful of the extra gears? Seems like BMW has their transmission set up like the former, while Lexus has theirs set up like the latter.

I read a while ago of one manufacturer (don't remember which one) who was planning to address the problem of too many gears for paddle shifting enjoyment by setting the manual mode up so that it skips a few of the 9 or 10 gears in the transmission, making it behave like a 6-speed. It would be nice to have that as an option.

 

[DevonK]

3rd - Yeah DCT is the only way to fly. "Paddle shift" in a slushbox automatic, I don't care how good these ZF boxes are, can't hold a candle. Sure the shift itself might be quick, but it comes a half a second to a full second after you pull the paddle. Chevy was pimping their paddle shift auto in the C7 hard, and all the reviews were disappointing. Even the ancient single-clutch setups like Ferrari's F1 and Lambo E-gear are leaps and bounds better, with crisp instant shifts. ...

That is true even at the lower end of the price range - the FRS paddle shifting has a bit of delay; the DCT on the Golf R is virtually instantaneous. Downside being maintenance cost, DCTs are not cheap to maintain - the VW DCT requires a very pricey service at about 50K miles IIRC.

 

[Craigy]

That is true even at the lower end of the price range - the FRS paddle shifting has a bit of delay; the DCT on the Golf R is virtually instantaneous. Downside being maintenance cost, DCTs are not cheap to maintain - the VW DCT requires a very pricey service at about 50K miles IIRC.

That is strange. The getrag units in BMWs are maintenance-free. I believe graziano units and Porsche's PDK requires a fluid change, but I don't have any personal experience. Fluid services are still likely far cheaper than clutch replacements.

 

[Craigy]

If I recall correctly, Motor Trend did a review of a car with the ZF-8 transmission and commented that the first 6 gears act like conventional gearing while 7th and 8th gears are more for fuel efficiency when in auto. I'll look into double checking it tonight, but if that's true, it seems that we wouldn't/shouldn't be rowing through gears as quickly and often when using the paddles.

EDIT: I was wrong, sorry. The review was about the Lexus LC500's 10 speed auto transmission.

The host makes some interesting points though. Would you rather have close gearing for spirited driving, the draw backs being it can get tedious with the paddles, or a set up like 5/6 close gears and the remaining for fuel efficiency/cruising which can be boring or wasteful of the extra gears? Seems like BMW has their transmission set up like the former, while Lexus has theirs set up like the latter.

I read a while ago of one manufacturer (don't remember which one) who was planning to address the problem of too many gears for paddle shifting enjoyment by setting the manual mode up so that it skips a few of the 9 or 10 gears in the transmission, making it behave like a 6-speed. It would be nice to have that as an option.

I've driven several 7 speed boxes and never found that an issue. Hell Porsche has been offering a 7 speed manual for awhile now. I remember Jeremy Clarkson complaining about gear hunting in a Lexus 8spd auto years ago but I think automatics have gotten better. 10 might be a lot though for paddle shifts if they're all close together, but I wouldn't mind 6 or 7 sporting gears and 2 or 3 overdrives that you only use on the highway.

 

[A70TTR]

I love DCT transmissions.. for me, at age 30, thats the one I want in all my cars aside from my old A70 (it can keep its R154 haha).

 

[HKz]

a bunch of grandpas on this forum

 

[Lexusisf]

ha ha not a grandpa....not even close, but guessing many of us have had our manuals in the past and now don't want a daily driver with a manual in heavy traffic....

 

[A70TTR]

haha, yeah for me its a traffic thing, but I guess most folks wouldn't have the Supra as their DD... I mean my Supra was a DD for a little while when I was in college, but that was about it.

different strokes...

 

[Craigy]

I actually prefer a dual clutch to a stick, regardless of traffic. Putting it in auto mode is a nice bonus but not really the attraction for me. I'm not really aiming for lap times either.

Stick shift is fun but IMO it's distracting, and I find it unsettles the car in a turn. I used to practice heel-toe, double clutching in my old Civic Si years ago but it was never the source of satisfaction that the journalists made it out to be. Maybe I just never got good enough at it.

Perhaps part of it is growing up playing gran turismo and shifting with buttons, or watching childhood hero Michael Schumacher win races with paddle shifters. Strangely I think one of the first paddle shift cars I ever drove was a Ferrari Enzo with single clutch F1 unit, which needless to say was a magical experience. On the flipside, I had driven a couple of those tiptronic button-shift automatic Porsches and they were just horrible.

As others have said, there's a lot of stick shift love on the internet forums and in the magazines, but when the real buyers put up their money, virtually all of them opt for the dual clutch.

 

[decryphe]

Nah. Manuals can suck it in stop and go traffic. 1st 2nd 1st 2nd 1st 2nd....

A true DCT is a fucking marvel of engineering.
I highly suggest you guys go test drive a 718 or a 911. It's free. You'll complete change your opinion on it.

I don't care if there's an auto option available, regardless of how much of a marvel of engineering it is. Being an engineer myself, I really enjoy the intricacies of the designs, but I don't use things if there's no fun left with them.

A car like this would never be my DD either way. Living in Switzerland, the country's full of great roads to enjoy spirited driving on, lacking a manual option is a deal breaker.

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