2023 MT Supra vs 2023 AT Supra

[visbits]

Automatic transmissions have power loss over a manual regardless of the design. They have hydraulic pumps and a lot of moving pieces that create parasitic drag. The converter lockup is hydro power, the clutches are hydro power.. the valve body is hydro power.. its constantly pumping fluid to the cooler...

Assuming the power level of the cars are the same the automatic is only going to have an advantage during a shfit, otherwise its not "better"...

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[AJRMKV]

I'm going to unlock the car and do a tune on BM3 soon. Then hopefully we get a comparo between JB4 map 2 and BM3 OTS map MT on 93. I would imagine that if he's only ahead by a car length before my tune I should be way ahead on BM3... If the clutch holds up

 

[JoshuaQ]

I did a 60-130 at the track yesterday with an AT 2023 Supra and the results were surprising. I'm well aware that the AT is faster from a stop but from 60 we were more or less even until 100, and I was at the rear bumper of the AT approaching 130-135 mph.

Mods on AT: Catless DP, JB4 Map 2
Mods on MT: AA catted DP, MBRP CBE, Intake, stock tune.

these results don't really make sense to me, it seems like the AT should pull more, does anyone else have experience between AT & MT?

With mods who should know? The MT is allegedly only .04 slower on the 0-60, so I don't see why there should be a huge difference, assuming the rest of the numbers fall in line similarly. And they are on an OTS. Not sure how reliable those are.

 

[Faye]

I drove MT & AT side by side on the track at LVMS last year during Supras in Vegas, and I was MUCH faster in the AT.... both cars were stock. But I am absolutely not a professional driver. Still chose to order a manual after my Auto A91 was totaled, though!

 

[AJRMKV]

I drove MT & AT side by side on the track at LVMS last year during Supras in Vegas, and I was MUCH faster in the AT.... both cars were stock. But I am absolutely not a professional driver. Still chose to order a manual after my Auto A91 was totaled, though!

From a roll in a straight line, side by side at the same time?

 

[Faye]

From a roll in a straight line, side by side at the same time?

one after the other. On the track, not the strip. switched back and forth several times

 

[AJRMKV]

one after the other. On the track, not the strip. switched back and forth several times

No doubt in my mind the auto is faster on the track. Anyways, i'll get a video up of a roll on the strip 23 at stock vs 23 mt stock in the next few weeks.

 

[NocturnalEmber]

No doubt in my mind the auto is faster on the track. Anyways, i'll get a video up of a roll on the strip 23 at stock vs 23 mt stock in the next few weeks.

I wouldn't be so quick to discount it. Most comparisons have been in 1/4 mile or 0-60 sprints, which undoubtedly will favor the ZF 8 speed with its shorter gearing. However, on an actual track setup, when up shifting and downshifting are much more spread apart, the automatic's advantage begins to fade somewhat.

Now, thats not to say I'm claiming the six speed manual is going to beat the automatic in every scenario outside of those, or vice versa, but the auto's advantage begins to shrink on a track environment where shifts are much further spread out.

 

[D3ad_Hand]

Unfortunately were stuck with garbage fuel in Canada. Only option is to order barrels of Ethanol, which isn't realistic.



Exactly .5-1 car more than stock. Dunno if the guy is on here but i'll send him your way next time I see him.

Well the best we got over here is 98 RON so ordering barrels of Ethanol over here is realistic, and what we do if you want an octane booster.

 

[kaj]

Assuming the power level of the cars are the same the automatic is only going to have an advantage during a shfit, otherwise its not "better"...

I wouldn't be so quick to discount it. Most comparisons have been in 1/4 mile or 0-60 sprints, which undoubtedly will favor the ZF 8 speed with its shorter gearing. However, on an actual track setup, when up shifting and downshifting are much more spread apart, the automatic's advantage begins to fade somewhat.

Now, thats not to say I'm claiming the six speed manual is going to beat the automatic in every scenario outside of those, or vice versa, but the auto's advantage begins to shrink on a track environment where shifts are much further spread out.

You guys are soooooo far off.

 

[D3ad_Hand]

Automatic transmissions have power loss over a manual regardless of the design. They have hydraulic pumps and a lot of moving pieces that create parasitic drag. The converter lockup is hydro power, the clutches are hydro power.. the valve body is hydro power.. its constantly pumping fluid to the cooler...

Assuming the power level of the cars are the same the automatic is only going to have an advantage during a shfit, otherwise its not "better"...

Would an xHP tune help with that though?

 

[Tacoma714]

Both are excellent. Am I 0.4 seconds or what ever slower than the automatic? Sure. I didn't buy my car to drag race. I bought it for my own enjoyment and engagement. I've said it before: If you want to build your car to drag race or race all Hellcats, Chargers and Mustangs that pull up to you on the road then get the automatic. Or get the automatic if it's your daily or you are stuck in traffic a lot. If you want the priceless engagement of changing your own gears, get the manual. Physical limitations or injuries should also help you choose the automatic because it's less of a hassle.

 

[NocturnalEmber]

You guys are soooooo far off.

How so? Nearly all of the bench marked times have been 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. These are obviously going to favor a close ratio multiple geared box, like the 8 speed.

My point is, and this article below is a great example of a primary source, is that once you are on track, you aren't going to be doing a whole lot of up shifting and downshifting to the point where the manual box would be nearly at a disadvantage.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a42387087/2023-toyota-gr-supra-3-0-lightning-lap-2023/

I wouldn't say that is so far off. You seem adamant about proving that the six speed manual transmission is inferior, and its not.

 

[kaj]

How so? Nearly all of the bench marked times have been 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. These are obviously going to favor a close ratio multiple geared box, like the 8 speed.

My point is, and this article below is a great example of a primary source, is that once you are on track, you aren't going to be doing a whole lot of up shifting and downshifting to the point where the manual box would be nearly at a disadvantage.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a42387087/2023-toyota-gr-supra-3-0-lightning-lap-2023/

I wouldn't say that is so far off. You seem adamant about proving that the six speed manual transmission is inferior, and its not.

You're leaving out the part where, in the comments, they also mention that track conditions and weather had a lot to do with the manual transmissions time being so close.
When they posted the data log, the automatic was faster everywhere except for in braking zones in which both cars were dead even with a slight advantage to The MT being able to brake later. That was attributed to the tires having more grip in that certain situation.

You seem adamant about proving that the six speed manual transmission is inferior

I've never said anything about it being inferior. Slower lap times? Yes. Not inferior. I'm not even a fan of automatic transmissions, but I also Don't blindly follow my preferences.

**Edit: It was grassroots Motorsports that posted the data logs. I believe they compare the 2020 automatic to a 23 manual.

"I'm going to say the difference in braking was most likely tires or track conditions or a combination of both. There' nothing particularly off in the shape of the curves that shows I was driving markedly differently, so to me that entire trace just kind of points to there being more available grip when we tested the newer car. Since we tested the 2020 version, the FIRM has also added some exit curbing, meaning you can get a bit more mid corner and exit speed, so there's also every chance I was more conservative on my entries with the pre-extended configuration."

 

[noogie]

unless you have driving skills like randy pobst, the auto vs manual on track is going to depend on driver skills.

on a straight where no skills are required, then auto will be faster 10/10 times.

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