Toyota Teases GR Line Up: Supra MK6, Celica MK8, MR2 MK4, 86 MK3 and GR GT

[KahnBB6]

The article from Bestcar makes no sense about the Celica and MR2 being a merged into a single model. The Toyota executive said in the MotorTrend interview that the Celica is near completion. Now we're learning that the Yaris Frankenstein mid engine test mule (I'm assuming for a new MR2) is having issues. Logical they can't be the same car.

It hasn't made sense to me either. The mid-engined prototype/concept and GR Yaris mid-engined test mule (which is having issues) are obviously an MR2 effort no matter how upmarket it goes.

A Celica is a higher volume car with a somewhat more practical coupe interior and has never been a mid-engined two seater which has niche appeal and usability. Calling an MR2 a "Celica" doesn't make any sense at all when "MR2" is the name any prospective buyers expect for a new generation mid-engine Toyota sportscar.

There isn't even a guarantee that the coming 3rd generation GR86 that's being developed will remain a two door coupe and if that turns out to be the case then there will be a good reason to have a Celica two door coupe in the lineup.

I'd welcome both cars as 2+2 coupes (one a basic RWD and the other a more luxurious FWD base & GT-Four AWD more range topping coupe) but there is scant info to know right now other than likely drivetrains and basic starting platform architectures.

All that is clear now is that some kind of mid-engined two seater GR model is being developed (setbacks and all) with a very likely G20E 2.0L turbo 400hp AT & MT with AWD lifted from the GR Yaris and GR Corolla.

It makes sense that a new Celica would offer a range topping GR trim with that same drivetrain in front engine configuration to revive the Celica GT-Four.

And it makes sense that some RWD compact successor to the GR86 is being developed and that Toyota will offer at least ONE "affordable" GR fun coupe in their lineup.

And I definitely see a case for a "Celica" two door 2+2 coupe being sold regardless of what the 3rd gen GR86 turns out to be (coupe? sedan?). I find it to be perfect for me and the chassis is exactly what it needs to be but it's definitely too small and too low for many people who still would like a two door coupe but want something offering a manual transmission and back seats that is a little larger and has a good deal more power.

The GR86, in whatever next-gen body style, should continue to be offered as it does fill a specific role. It's a very basic entry level sportscar with few options to keep costs and weight down. It's just not the right coupe to sell in much higher volume to a potentially much larger customer base.

And that's exactly where a new Celica 2-door 2+2 coupe would come in offering a range of drivetrain and interior options... not just the top of the line GR GT-Four variant that we're all expecting and want.

Despite what we've heard about the MR2 "Celica" I agree with you that it's far more likely we'll see a separate and reasonable volume produced front engine two-door 2+2 coupe Celica and eventually this much lower volume MR2 mid-engine RWD/AWD successor as a separate vehicle.

I CAN certainly see both an MR2 and Celica sharing some development with the range topping 2.0L I-4 turbo AWD driveline and transmissions. The engine placement is just in a different spot in each. And I can see that extending to the Celica front and MR2 rear subframes and suspension components.

^^ And that is something I recall reading in the rumors from a couple of years ago. That aspect of both models *sharing some development parameters* rather than being the same model all in one make more sense.

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[Bryster]

can you see them doing the '"close to Mid Engine" format?

 

[KahnBB6]

can you see them doing the '"close to Mid Engine" format?

Without further information to read between the lines with it's impossible for anyone not in the know to say at current time what they're doing with the Celica.

But personally? Yeah, I can see them doing some version of "front mid engine" if it's still a front engine coupe.

Reason being that Toyota has already gone to great efforts to reduce the overall height of its new generation of inline three and inline four engines which on its own will allow them to achieve lower hood lines. And with all that they'd probably like to get the most amount of the engine mass back as far behind the front axle line as possible for better weight distribution and better handling.

IF the "Celica" does end up coming out as a separate model with a transverse front engine layout it is going to have the new Honda Prelude to compete with which is going to have the Civic Type R's sophisticated front suspension and has always been built to be an excellent handling coupe.

And between all the cagey and vague not explicitly spelled out info leaks in Japanese translated into English it's entirely possible that "rear mid engine two seater" and "front mid engine" may have become very intentionally confused for now.

It's possible? Only those in the know can say for sure but I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case.

...

Further speculation:

Let's say the plan was to offer a new age MR2 Turbo but also a new Celica with a GR GT-Four variant and both with the GR-Four AWD with the current 6MT and 8AT transmissions the GR Yaris and GR Corolla are using.

Well they had the G20E four cylinder turbo nearly fully developed already and decide to share some of the core R&D costs where the lower volume two seater gets a rear-mid engine rear subframe based off a mirror inversion of the front subframe the Celica would get with the same engine at the front. All wheel drive in both.

So maybe they (again I am speculating) go to work developing the Celica front mid engine 2+2 coupe chassis first since it's going to be the higher volume seller with wider trim level and powertrain options for more mass appeal and far greater sales.

Then, somewhat concurrently after that initial platform and front subframe is developed the GR MR2 (or whatever they want to call it) folks get those bones as THEIR starting point and get to work after flipping that subframe around and/or inverting some of its engine mounting points.

Then maybe they've been testing with a one-off custom GR Yaris mid engine test mule with a shorter wheelbase just to work out many parameters of what will go into the longer wheelbase two seater mid engine design.

And... they haven't done this in a while and hit some snags along the way. And because they want a home run at launch to live up to their past history they keep working at it on a slightly delayed schedule?

Meanwhile... the other higher volume front engine car which gave them the initial chassis architecture starting points to refine may have continued moving forward through the R&D and later design stages. And besides the 4cyl turbo AWD trim level the other less powerful FWD and hybrid AWD drivetrain trim levels would also have been developed for the higher volume car.

Again this is all just my speculation but if I were a major corporation that loves to amortize development costs and drivetrain sharing as much as possible to increase the business case for niche sports vehicle projects this kind of planning would make sense.

For the GR GT3 / Lexus LFR to have a single model bespoke platform developed (since it is going to be a series production halo car successor to the LFA) makes sense. It is going to be a VERY expensive and VERY exclusive low volume showcase car.

Even the LC500 shares its platform architecture (in modified form) with the LS500.

To me a much lower cost new era "MR2" would need to share substantial development costs and drivetrain parts with another higher volume model... plus the usual sharing of many easily chosen Toyota parts bin components (switches, various electrical bits, etc.).

...But yes, with all of this to consider I do feel it's a very very easy likelihood that Toyota may have wanted for a front engine Celica a highly ideal front engine to front axle centerline placement and low engine height for excellent weight distribution and handling.

Is that really the case...? Honestly I sure hope so!

 

[gor134]

The article from Bestcar makes no sense about the Celica and MR2 being a merged into a single model. The Toyota executive said in the MotorTrend interview that the Celica is near completion. Now we're learning that the Yaris Frankenstein mid engine test mule (I'm assuming for a new MR2) is having issues. Logical they can't be the same car.

Where did they say that in the Motor Trend interview?

Also it does make sense.. They've publically talked about Celica, not MR2. Yet we haven't seen any Celica mules but we have seen the MR Yaris development mule.

If it's a rally-oriented MR car maybe that's why they are giving it the Celica name instead of MR2.

 

[Zboy]

Where did they say that in the Motor Trend interview?

Also it does make sense.. They've publically talked about Celica, not MR2. Yet we haven't seen any Celica mules but we have seen the MR Yaris development mule.

If it's a rally-oriented MR car maybe that's why they are giving it the Celica name instead of MR2.

I think he was talking about this article where Cooper Ericksen said “It’s a pretty advanced development.”

https://www.motortrend.com/news/eighth-generation-toyota-celica-development-continues

 

[Bryster]

is Toyota paying attention to the scaled back regulations? will that affect development

 

[BackToBlack]

is Toyota paying attention to the scaled back regulations? will that affect development

If it's a worldwide model, then EU and other places didn't really scale anything back environmentally, not gonna affect too much. Also 3.5 years later, who knows what the next administration will do.

 

[PerformanceSound]

Any car that Toyota makes that has mirrors mounted on the door skin and not the A-pillar.....that's a car people need to pay attention to.

 

[KahnBB6]

Any car that Toyota makes that has mirrors mounted on the door skin and not the A-pillar.....that's a car people need to pay attention to.

Currently as prototypes go that would be either the near production ready GR GT3 / Lexus LFR we've seen in spy shots and at Goodwood and supposedly the new GR "Celica" / MR2 if any of the renderings so far hold water.

The S-FR concept also mounted them this way. Same with the LC500 and RC.

The GR Yaris does not while the GR Corolla (and its regular versions) does.

With co-developments it's interesting that the soon to be outgoing GR86 (and the GT86 1st gen) also does this while the MKV doesn't.

 

[PerformanceSound]

There will be delays. Weight seems to be a tough obstacle for this platform.

The problem we (“potential buyers”) are going to face is, if it’s a carbon tub it will be a vehicle very few will be able to obtain as it will go well past the six figure price (definitely a Lexus). If it will be mostly aluminum with steel reinforcements (Toyota), it will need displacement to get it moving properly….which will still push it near the six figure mark. Now, downsizing the motor is an option, but that would either mean utilizing ALOT of carbon fiber (which won’t be affordable) or substantially making the platform smaller. Hybrid is going to add substantial weight to an already hefty chassis.

Throw in the economics factor into all this with inflation still a problem and dealer greed….this is going to be tricky for Toyota. One thing I have been hearing hints of is the repurposing of the LC platform, in a more stripped out version. Two G16E-GTS blocks joined at opposite angles doesn’t sound bad .

 

[KahnBB6]

There will be delays. Weight seems to be a tough obstacle for this platform.

The problem we (“potential buyers”) are going to face is, if it’s a carbon tub it will be a vehicle very few will be able to obtain as it will go well past the six figure price (definitely a Lexus). If it will be mostly aluminum with steel reinforcements (Toyota), it will need displacement to get it moving properly….which will still push it near the six figure mark. Now, downsizing the motor is an option, but that would either mean utilizing ALOT of carbon fiber (which won’t be affordable) or substantially making the platform smaller. Hybrid is going to add substantial weight to an already hefty chassis.

Throw in the economics factor into all this with inflation still a problem and dealer greed….this is going to be tricky for Toyota. One thing I have been hearing hints of is the repurposing of the LC platform, in a more stripped out version. Two G16E-GTS blocks joined at opposite angles doesn’t sound bad .

Which platform are you referring to though?

If it's the preproduction GR GT3 / LFR you're talking about I expect it will have a combination of aluminum and carbon fiber structure. That is going to be a VERY expensive halo model very well into the six figure range. It would make badging it as a Lexus make sense.

If you're talking about the G20E powered "Celica"/MR2 then I cannot see that one getting a carbon fiber structure. We know it'll be very expensive but if it gets to six-figure expensive it would kill all the appeal. And supposedly that model will avoid any hybridization.

Repurposing the LC platform is interesting. I had thought the LC-F was cancelled long into its development because the chassis was not deemed to be rigid enough (or light enough) to do what the engineers ultimately wanted from a full "F" model. But the engine they were developing was supposed to have been used as the basis for the GR GT3's V8 TT hybrid.

Making two G16E's into a high performance 3.2L V6 with boost sounds great. But we still want them joined as an in-line six

 

[PerformanceSound]

Which platform are you referring to though?

If it's the preproduction GR GT3 / LFR you're talking about I expect it will have a combination of aluminum and carbon fiber structure. That is going to be a VERY expensive halo model very well into the six figure range. It would make badging it as a Lexus make sense.

If you're talking about the G20E powered "Celica"/MR2 then I cannot see that one getting a carbon fiber structure. We know it'll be very expensive but if it gets to six-figure expensive it would kill all the appeal. And supposedly that model will avoid any hybridization.

Repurposing the LC platform is interesting. I had thought the LC-F was cancelled long into its development because the chassis was not deemed to be rigid enough (or light enough) to do what the engineers ultimately wanted from a full "F" model. But the engine they were developing was supposed to have been used as the basis for the GR GT3's V8 TT hybrid.

Making two G16E's into a high performance 3.2L V6 with boost sounds great. But we still want them joined as an in-line six

Word is the LC is being kept alive a bit longer for some reason.

 

[KahnBB6]

Word is the LC is being kept alive a bit longer for some reason.

Well we already know that the Supra MKVI 2-seater and new Lexus coupe 2+2 that replaces the RC & current LC at a higher-than-RC price point are sharing a "new" platform and are getting the G20E and *hopefully if we're lucky* a heavily reworked Mazda 3.3L I6. And that an RC 6-speed manual G20E non-hybrid 600hp test mule exists.

And the GR GT3 / LFR is its own expensive platform (right?).

The current LC is being extended or has been extended another production year.

A repurposed and stripped down current LC platform with a smaller engine sounds great... and would have to somehow slot in between the new RWD coupe and supercar-level GR GT3 / LFR in the Lexus lineup if that's the case. The LC platform is already a scaled down version of the LS500 underpinnings.

Interesting whatever comes of this. The current LC/LS platform is still great. I'd love to see them make yet another model from it.

 

[PerformanceSound]

Well we already know that the Supra MKVI 2-seater and new Lexus coupe 2+2 that replaces the RC & current LC at a higher-than-RC price point are sharing a "new" platform and are getting the G20E and *hopefully if we're lucky* a heavily reworked Mazda 3.3L I6. And that an RC 6-speed manual G20E non-hybrid 600hp test mule exists.

And the GR GT3 / LFR is its own expensive platform (right?).

The current LC is being extended or has been extended another production year.

A repurposed and stripped down current LC platform with a smaller engine sounds great... and would have to somehow slot in between the new RWD coupe and supercar-level GR GT3 / LFR in the Lexus lineup if that's the case. The LC platform is already a scaled down version of the LS500 underpinnings.

Interesting whatever comes of this. The current LC/LS platform is still great. I'd love to see them make yet another model from it.

The LC still has (I think) alot of potential. Not many people realize how much time, money, and effort went into the development of that platform. I don't think Toyota is in the business of spending a ton of money for nothing. With that said, whether it was a "spin-off" of the LS platform in a sports coupe, it's still a Lexus which means it's still very heavy. We need it brought down to Toyota-level which will further water-down the car overall in a good way. In other words, we don't need diamond stitched seats, or additional layers of insulation, or suede A-pillars, or etc... Lighter chassis, turbo six (even if it means a solid V6TT), "F" automatic transmission or manual, and new skin. It's much easier to accomplish than a ground up build. The previous Supra's (excluding the MKV) are very spartan, yet fit the bill. Just keep electrification out of the formula.

All speculation here, just sayin'.....it would be a shame to drop this platform, its a well built platform.

 

[Zboy]

Hmmm makes you wonder why Toyota just didn't use the LC chassis for the MK5.

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