New rumors from C&D: 2020 Supra to get BMW inline six engine / B58 & S58 chat

[formsracing]

New member and former BMW M owner chiming in.

Whichever power plant ends up being in the Supra, the highest performance trim of the Supra will have performance specs rivaling, if not surpassing by a small margin, the current M3/M4. It will also most likely have a more sports car dynamic and less of the GT car feel due to its lower weight (where this ends up remains to be seen) and no 2+2 configuration.

Why would BMW allow this? Historically, BMW M3's have gone on a 5 year production run, at the end of which will be a 1-2 year gap period between the new generation. E92 M3 (2008-2013) and E46 M3 (2001- 2006). I think that timing aspect will play a huge roll all this. By the time the Supra comes out, the current generation M3/M4 (2015-???) will have almost reached the end of its run and BMW M will be preparing for the new gen cars. Thus, they would not limit the top trim Supra to have performance specs similar to the current generation M3/M4 because BMW will be developing something that will easily surpass the Supra in a few years.

I would think power wise, the Supra will have somewhere between 425HP (current M3/M4) to 460HP (RC-F). While it may or may not surpass those two cars in straight line acceleration ( i think it will be on par with the M3/M4), it will perform more like a true sports car (a la Cayman) than a bonkers 2+2 GT car on steroids.

Edit: I will also like to add, if Toyota's Supra Halo has under 400HP, this will be a colossal failure on Toyota's part. All these years of development and money will avail to absolutely nothing worthwhile and will put Toyota right at the bottom of the performance hierarchy amongst Giants.

Trust me guys, the sports cars that will be coming in the next few years will be absolutely ridiculous.

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[vb22]

BMW employees' excuse for not making a Z4 M (because of the shrinking market for the 2 seater sports car). seems like Chevy, Mazda, and Porsche some how missed that memo. or could it be the E89 isn't really good at anything and doesn't stand out in the segment? not to mention the other reasons i stated earlier today.

Well if we go back in time the Z4M did really poorly. BMW dealers had to give up to a $10k discount in order to move them. Plus we now have a M2, its somewhat comparable. So I acutally don't blame BMW for not wanting to make another one. However when it comes to Toyota it would be extremely sad if the the top of the line Supra topped out at '335hp'.

 

[HKz]

New member and former BMW M owner chiming in.

Whichever power plant ends up being in the Supra, the highest performance trim of the Supra will have performance specs rivaling, if not surpassing by a small margin, the current M3/M4. It will also most likely have a more sports car dynamic and less of the GT car feel due to its lower weight (where this ends up remains to be seen) and no 2+2 configuration.

Why would BMW allow this? Historically, BMW M3's have gone on a 5 year production run, at the end of which will be a 1-2 year gap period between the new generation. E92 M3 (2008-2013) and E46 M3 (2001- 2006). I think that timing aspect will play a huge roll all this. By the time the Supra comes out, the current generation M3/M4 (2015-???) will have almost reached the end of its run and BMW M will be preparing for the new gen cars. Thus, they would not limit the top trim Supra to have performance specs similar to the current generation M3/M4 because BMW will be developing something that will easily surpass the Supra in a few years.

I would think power wise, the Supra will have somewhere between 425HP (current M3/M4) to 460HP (RC-F). While it may or may not surpass those two cars in straight line acceleration ( i think it will be on par with the M3/M4), it will perform more like a true sports car (a la Cayman) than a bonkers 2+2 GT car on steroids.

HP in the 400s would be respectable to some degree (with this being boosted I am much more interested in the torque figures) but the supra project should emphasize power over handling...personally I don't care or want the Supra to be necessarily a light and nimble chassis as long as the power is exciting.

still can't see the new supra being any faster than the current Ms, brand dilution is a real issue especially for a brand who has changed its image as much as bmw..

Edit: I will also like to add, if Toyota's Supra Halo has under 400HP, this will be a colossal failure on Toyota's part. All these years of development and money will avail to absolutely nothing worthwhile and will put Toyota right at the bottom of the performance hierarchy amongst Giants.

Trust me guys, the sports cars that will be coming in the next few years will be absolutely ridiculous.

if it fails, toyota is only partly to blame...so far the only thing we can attest is that toyota just provided the cash while bmw provides the result so if this is using just a rehashed bmw engine as we all suspect, it will be up to bmw to determine how much tech & performance toyota gets


meh, all this bmw speculation still doesn't get my blood pumping..guess the vette will hang onto its power per dollar title

 

[2JZ-No-Sh*t]

New member and former BMW M owner chiming in.

Whichever power plant ends up being in the Supra, the highest performance trim of the Supra will have performance specs rivaling, if not surpassing by a small margin, the current M3/M4. It will also most likely have a more sports car dynamic and less of the GT car feel due to its lower weight (where this ends up remains to be seen) and no 2+2 configuration.

Why would BMW allow this? Historically, BMW M3's have gone on a 5 year production run, at the end of which will be a 1-2 year gap period between the new generation. E92 M3 (2008-2013) and E46 M3 (2001- 2006). I think that timing aspect will play a huge roll all this. By the time the Supra comes out, the current generation M3/M4 (2015-???) will have almost reached the end of its run and BMW M will be preparing for the new gen cars. Thus, they would not limit the top trim Supra to have performance specs similar to the current generation M3/M4 because BMW will be developing something that will easily surpass the Supra in a few years.

I would think power wise, the Supra will have somewhere between 425HP (current M3/M4) to 460HP (RC-F). While it may or may not surpass those two cars in straight line acceleration ( i think it will be on par with the M3/M4), it will perform more like a true sports car (a la Cayman) than a bonkers 2+2 GT car on steroids.

Edit: I will also like to add, if Toyota's Supra Halo has under 400HP, this will be a colossal failure on Toyota's part. All these years of development and money will avail to absolutely nothing worthwhile and will put Toyota right at the bottom of the performance hierarchy amongst Giants.

Trust me guys, the sports cars that will be coming in the next few years will be absolutely ridiculous.

Welcome to the forums

Good points, BMW is reportedly working on a replacement called the S58. So in theory it does make sense for BMW to fit the Supra with the M3's S55 or M2's N55.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2017/03/13/bmw-f97-x3-m-launching-2019-new-s58-engine-450-horsepower/

 

[vb22]

New member and former BMW M owner chiming in.

Whichever power plant ends up being in the Supra, the highest performance trim of the Supra will have performance specs rivaling, if not surpassing by a small margin, the current M3/M4. It will also most likely have a more sports car dynamic and less of the GT car feel due to its lower weight (where this ends up remains to be seen) and no 2+2 configuration.

Why would BMW allow this? Historically, BMW M3's have gone on a 5 year production run, at the end of which will be a 1-2 year gap period between the new generation. E92 M3 (2008-2013) and E46 M3 (2001- 2006). I think that timing aspect will play a huge roll all this. By the time the Supra comes out, the current generation M3/M4 (2015-???) will have almost reached the end of its run and BMW M will be preparing for the new gen cars. Thus, they would not limit the top trim Supra to have performance specs similar to the current generation M3/M4 because BMW will be developing something that will easily surpass the Supra in a few years.

I would think power wise, the Supra will have somewhere between 425HP (current M3/M4) to 460HP (RC-F). While it may or may not surpass those two cars in straight line acceleration ( i think it will be on par with the M3/M4), it will perform more like a true sports car (a la Cayman) than a bonkers 2+2 GT car on steroids.

Edit: I will also like to add, if Toyota's Supra Halo has under 400HP, this will be a colossal failure on Toyota's part. All these years of development and money will avail to absolutely nothing worthwhile and will put Toyota right at the bottom of the performance hierarchy amongst Giants.

Trust me guys, the sports cars that will be coming in the next few years will be absolutely ridiculous.

First, welcome and don't be shy.

Yeah you're right. A new 3 has already been spied testing. A new M3 can't be too far behind.

if it fails, toyota is only partly to blame...so far the only thing we can attest is that toyota just provided the cash while bmw provides the result so if this is using just a rehashed bmw engine as we all suspect, it will be up to bmw to determine how much tech & performance toyota gets

X2, if this sucks I blame Toyota for allowing this abomination to even take place.

 

[gymratter]

Good points, BMW is reportedly working on a replacement called the S58. So in theory it does make sense for BMW to fit the Supra with the M3's S55 or M2's N55.

the N55 is old news and is being phased out with the B58. if i had to place bets, i would say thats what they are going with.

 

[2JZ-No-Sh*t]

the N55 is old news and is being phased out with the B58. if i had to place bets, i would say thats what they are going with.

No arguments there, even a Toyota employee over at Supraforums have hinted at the B58. What I'm saying is it would be a disappointment if that were the top ranging model.

 

[formsracing]

All these engine choices you guys have pointed out is possible and I will not be surprised at any making it into the Supra.

However, what intrigues me the most is how, and if, they will incorporate the much rumored Hybrid technology that even Toyota execs have hinted at.

Toyota's hybrid tech showcased on their WEC racers has proven to be on par with the likes of Porsche and Audi in terms of out-right performance. Will elements of that technology somehow make it's way to the Supra?

Will Toyota incorporate this hybrid tech into one of their 4cycl to boost the performance (and economy) or go all out with the top trim and sport either a BMW sourced TT I6 or Toyota's own TT V6 to make an absolute technology showcase?

Obviously, a top of the line Hybrid model is the most enticing, however the possible performance ceiling may be too high for a 60k-80k price range and will step on BMW's toes too much. The 6 cylinder engines can generate so much performance by themselves already (if the manufacturers wanted to), much less with a hybrid system incorporated.

So I actually think if there will be some sort of Hybrid power, it will supplement the rumored 4 cylinder engine options.

 

[HKz]

All these engine choices you guys have pointed out is possible and I will not be surprised at any making it into the Supra.

However, what intrigues me the most is how, and if, they will incorporate the much rumored Hybrid technology that even Toyota execs have hinted at.

Toyota's hybrid tech showcased on their WEC racers has proven to be on par with the likes of Porsche and Audi in terms of out-right performance. Will elements of that technology somehow make it's way to the Supra?

Will Toyota incorporate this hybrid tech into one of their 4cycl to boost the performance (and economy) or go all out with the top trim and sport either a BMW sourced TT I6 or Toyota's own TT V6 to make an absolute technology showcase?

Obviously, a top of the line Hybrid model is the most enticing, however the possible performance ceiling may be too high for a 60k-80k price range and will step on BMW's toes too much. The 6 cylinder engines can generate so much performance by themselves already (if the manufacturers wanted to), much less with a hybrid system incorporated.

So I actually think if there will be some sort of Hybrid power, it will supplement the rumored 4 cylinder engine options.

not sure how LMP1 hybrid technology would make its way to a car that isn't 6 figures without it being half baked and still behind every high powered non-hybrid coupe on performance. it is safe to say a good chunk, if not most of us want corvette level performance for a similar price range.

 

[formsracing]

not sure how LMP1 hybrid technology would make its way to a car that isn't 6 figures without it being half baked and still behind every high powered non-hybrid coupe on performance. it is safe to say a good chunk, if not most of us want corvette level performance for a similar price range.

I understand where you're coming from. I think everyone will agree Corvette like performance can be achieved on that chassis with either of the TT 6 cylinder engine choices tuned competently.

My point is where would that leave this rumored Hybrid tech. Of course it will not be anywhere near the level of their WEC cars, but it doesn't take much to boost performance.

Hence, IF the engine by itself is already going to be so competent, I'm merely saying we will most likely just see some form of the hybrid technology (no matter how small) in the 4 cylinder options.

To put any kind of hybrid tech in an engine already having 400hp+ output will elevate this car into a totally different performance and price bracket than what it will be.

Edit: Or they can opt to incorporate the hybrid tech into a standard TT 6 cylinder to make the combined (hopefully) 400hp+ capable car. But I will have no idea where that would leave the 4 cylinders if those engine options are true.

 

[Haros]

I understand where you're coming from. I think everyone will agree Corvette like performance can be achieved on that chassis with either of the TT 6 cylinder engine choices tuned competently.

My point is where would that leave this rumored Hybrid tech. Of course it will not be anywhere near the level of their WEC cars, but it doesn't take much to boost performance.

Hence, IF the engine by itself is already going to be so competent, I'm merely saying we will most likely just see some form of the hybrid technology (no matter how small) in the 4 cylinder options.

To put any kind of hybrid tech in an engine already having 400hp+ output will elevate this car into a totally different performance and price bracket than what it will be.

Hybrid and battery technology is EXPENSIVE though - and seeing how *if* there even is a 4 cycle option, I very much doubt they would to want to increase its manufacturing cost beyond what a simple tried and true i6, v6, would cost.

Also in terms of performance... just look at the I'll fated CRZ. If you are thinking it will be anything like the P1 or la Ferrari I would believe you to be mistaken. There is nothing like the KERS like system anywhere in the BMW/Toyota catalog, including the I8.

As for the toyota LMP1 racer... Well toyota themselves (as well as porsche) have stated it simply isn't reliable or even ready.
https://www.google.ca/amp/blackflag...ns-admit-tech-is-not-yet-ready-1796320274/amp

 

[HKz]

I understand where you're coming from. I think everyone will agree Corvette like performance can be achieved on that chassis with either of the TT 6 cylinder engine choices tuned competently.

My point is where would that leave this rumored Hybrid tech. Of course it will not be anywhere near the level of their WEC cars, but it doesn't take much to boost performance.

Hence, IF the engine by itself is already going to be so competent, I'm merely saying we will most likely just see some form of the hybrid technology (no matter how small) in the 4 cylinder options.

To put any kind of hybrid tech in an engine already having 400hp+ output will elevate this car into a totally different performance and price bracket than what it will be.

obviously a TT i6 could be adequate to achieve such a goal but a hybrid system isn't as simple or as cheap (not to mention weight/packaging penalties) as how you're making it sound. logically speaking, name me all the hybrid powertrains currently on offer out there along with their MSRP (for example, the i8 price)... Lexus is pretty much the only manufacturer that even offers "performance" hybrids for under 6 figures with the GS, RX and LC but these are NA V6s with several electric engines which would be far from what people were expecting with the Supra. On top of that there would be yet another conflict of interest with the Lexus models as it is hard for me to see a next generation hybrid system from Toyota/Lexus debuting on a BMW Toyota instead of a Lexus especially since they seemed particularly proud of the system in the LC500h.

 

[formsracing]

obviously a TT i6 could be adequate to achieve such a goal but a hybrid system isn't as simple or as cheap (not mention to weight/packaging penalties) as how you're making it sound. logically speaking, name me all the hybrid powertrains currently on offer out there along with their MSRP (for example, the i8 price)... Lexus is pretty much the only manufacturer that even offers "performance" hybrids for under 6 figures with the GS, RX and LC but these are NA V6s with several electric engines which would be far from what people were expecting with the Supra. On top of that there would be yet another conflict of interest with the Lexus models as it is hard for me to see a next generation hybrid system from Toyota/Lexus debuting on a BMW Toyota instead of a Lexus especially since they seemed particularly proud of the system in the LC500h.

Regardless of how hybrid tech will be incorporated, there are just indications that it will be in the Supra. I believe it will happen, just a matter of what kind of system and to which trim level.

When I mentioned the WEC cars I don't mean simply taking that technology and making it fit into the Supra. Toyota's have been at the forefront of hybrid technology for a while now. They can take what they've learned from WEC and easily make modifications to their existing hybrid range to provide a compelling package in the 60k-80k range.

Of all the automakers, Toyota is actually the most equipped to do such a thing right now.

My point isn't what the extent of the hybrid tech will be. It's that I believe there will be some form of hybrid as is rumored.

From what I gather, you do not believe that ANY form of hybrid technology will be in the Supra?

 

[HKz]

Hybrid and battery technology is EXPENSIVE though - and seeing how *if* there even is a 4 cycle option, I very much doubt they would to want to increase its manufacturing cost beyond what a simple tried and true i6, v6, would cost.

Also in terms of performance... just look at the I'll fated CRZ. If you are thinking it will be anything like the P1 or la Ferrari I would believe you to be mistaken. There is nothing like the KERS like system anywhere in the BMW/Toyota catalog, including the I8.

As for the toyota LMP1 racer... Well toyota themselves (as well as porsche) have stated it simply isn't reliable or even ready.
https://www.google.ca/amp/blackflag...ns-admit-tech-is-not-yet-ready-1796320274/amp

i agree but to be fair in my eyes the CRZ was a success especially since what they achieved was unprecedented even for today since no one else has bothered to make a manual for a production hybrid other than Honda. The CRZ only really lacked outright power, everything else was pretty typical Honda.

 

[HKz]

Regardless of how hybrid tech will be incorporated, there are just indications that it will be in the Supra. I believe it will happen, just a matter of what kind of system and to which trim level.

When I mentioned the WEC cars I don't mean simply taking that technology and making it fit into the Supra. Toyota's have been at the forefront of hybrid technology for a while now. They can take what they've learned from WEC and easily make modifications to their existing hybrid range to provide a compelling package in the 60k-80k range.

Of all the automakers, Toyota is actually the most equipped to do such a thing right now.

My point isn't what the extent of the hybrid tech will be. It's that I believe there will be some form of hybrid as is rumored.

From what I gather, you do not believe that ANY form of hybrid technology will be in the Supra?

it does indeed matter what type of tech is incorporated, otherwise it'll be underwhelming as with most hybrids..as @Haros pointed out, the most modern performance hybrids have featured a kers...but take a look at the 2nd gen NSX..while it is sometimes called a baby 918, its powertrain is less sophisticated even at its 6 figure price point so it ended up being heavier and slower than its rivals. It isn't to say the NSX is bad or slow in any way, but it is sad to see a halo car get its priced jacked up that much and become much more complex only to be pretty much behind in all benchmark tests. i think it is safe to say that they aren't incorporating such technology on a $60 K car. I do not foresee a hybrid in any way even for markets with displacement/cylinder taxes as logically that is what the turbo 4 bangers are for.

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