Toyota Teases GR Line Up: Supra MK6, Celica MK8, MR2 MK4, 86 MK3 and GR GT

[swrdply400mrelay]

Interesting that the C&D journalist described the entire mid engine development mule *program* as "modular", suggesting the resulting work could create more than one final vehicle.

I'm speculating but maybe that is why an earlier rumor suggested that the Celica and MR2 were sharing development work. Or... maybe it's just the C&D journalist's impression and wishful thinking. Hard to say.

But with all the work being done to get the "MR2"-like car right and on such a long timeframe and given how much Toyota GR surely wants to use that AWD system into the next several years I would not be surprised if all this R&D ended up in more than just one production car. Now that's just me thinking about it. But it's a tremendous amount of work, investment and time.

I noticed that too, I’m guessing the AWD will at least share a platform with the GRC.

The Emira is such a weird car. It looks a step up from the Supra - like the curves are more purposeful and genuine - but it's just not up to punching up at all. At car meets it looks out of place next to higher priced cars in a way the Supra just doesn't. It's like the Supra is a bit of a working class hero whereas the Emira is an expensive car that just isn't up to the hype, despite its looks. It's a bit of a poser in my opinion. And lets face it, that Toyota engine didn't do much for its street cred.. just don't tell the should've been a Toyota Toyota Supra crowd.

I love the Emira and the way it looks, on top of that I love that Lotus kept the manual, though it’s going away.

I wish Lotus would have upgraded the internals and turned up the boost a bit to 500 hp.

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[jmikes]

The Emira is such a weird car. It looks a step up from the Supra - like the curves are more purposeful and genuine - but it's just not up to punching up at all. At car meets it looks out of place next to higher priced cars in a way the Supra just doesn't. It's like the Supra is a bit of a working class hero whereas the Emira is an expensive car that just isn't up to the hype, despite its looks. It's a bit of a poser in my opinion. And lets face it, that Toyota engine didn't do much for its street cred.. just don't tell the should've been a Toyota Toyota Supra crowd.

Well said and I agree for sure.

The Supra just wanted to be a great sports car, but gets respect from supercar guys because it looks unique and can make supercar power for very little effort/investment

The Emira wanted to be a supercar, but the performance leaves much to be desired, the engines' potentials aren't great (from what I know), and the car tries too hard to look like every other supercar

I still like the Emira of course, but for the price I'd rather get a 911 non-turbo, or if I need it to look like a traditional supercar, a C8 Z06.

 

[KahnBB6]

I love the Lotus Emira but the one that really got me was the previous Evora. It's one of those cars that looks better in person than it does in most pictures. Several years back a neighbor had one as a daily. Gorgeous design.

And very interestingly it was 2GR-FE V6 powered in a rear-mid-engine configuration *as a 2+2*. It wasn't that big of a back seat (par for the course with most 2+2's) but that was quite a feat of package design for the time.

If the MR2 does actually get badged as a "Celica" then taking the Lotus Evora packaging layout would seem to be the most appropriate reason for it IMO. But there's really no telling at this point. At this stage we're only seeing the frankenstein modified GR Yaris test mules which they're using to get the drivetrain cooling issues solved and the handling at the limit balance with the AWD system figured out since they do not want a repeat of the lift oversteer handling quirks of the 2nd gen MR2 Turbo.

As for platform sharing with the GRC I'd guess at the subframes maybe...? The GR Yaris already shares the same rear subframe more or less with the GR Corolla as I understand it.

I would be surprised if the "MR2" production car went to a full front and rear full double-wishbone suspension though. That would be more the Supra and Lexus coupe's territory I'd think.

 

[KahnBB6]

I very much doubt that the MR2 would be above the Supra (in cost nor status).

Based on the history of all these cars I agree. The Supra has always been at the top of the Toyota sportscar line.

Although now they have changed that with the Lexus LFA and GR GT3 by making true supercars at the top. But I still don't think those cars change anything about the Supra's perceived status in the hierarchy.

The issue is that the MR2 started off as very small, compact and affordable with not too much power in the AW11 and still in the SW20 and then a couple of steps back again with the MR-S / MR2 Spyder. The SW20 Turbo could be modified to be very formidable but it wasn't stepping into the Supra Turbo's spotlight or price point in stock form.

Now that Toyota wants to use GR-Four AWD to mitigate at the limit handling issues that less experienced driver's encountered in the SW20 Turbo series it will bring the cost up. And many regulations have made making a compact low cost mid engine sportscar more challenging.

It WILL be a very good car but doing it the way they want to is likely not going to allow it to easily slide under the Supra in power to weight ratio and price the way it used to. They want to make a great MR2 and seem to be determined to do so (which is very good).

But given where the Supra has hovered in price since the MKIV series (roughly $70k-$80k USD adjusted for inflation) which has been only slightly undercut in certain MKV trim levels I don't understand how they want to position these cars in relation to one another.

They may just want to make them while they can make them as they want to and offer them side by side as two very different expressions of Toyota engineering and performance.

...

Aside, this also takes me back to some earlier rumor I heard about the Lexus LC500's four wheel double wishbone platform architecture possibly being downsized and heavily reworked to strengthen it for future use in another product. Maybe this means just subframes...? It was a rumor.

But also A70TTR did mention (a long while back) that Lexus and Toyota were greenlit a core performance platform to use for Supra MKVI and future Lexus coupe development.

He did not go into the nature of what that was but as we follow the development process for the Supra MKVI, MR2 4th gen, Celica 8th gen, GR86 3rd gen and previously the GR Yaris and GR Corolla it would not surprise me to see Toyota re-use big chunks of prior platforms and hardware just as they always have.

 

[vb22]

 

[Bryster]

i'm curious on whether the next Emira will look like the MR2 or the V8 Lotus Hypercar

 

[Ron L]

After following up in a Emira FB page and looking at specs for the Emira vs Supra, I've decided I'll wait for whatever is coming next from Toyota (or any other reliable manufacturer). I really like the looks of the Emira and I wish the next MR2 would look similar. But knowing Toyota, I seriously doubt it will look that good or have the specs that the Emira has. Does anybody really expect that the Celica or MR2 will be 400hp. I can only hope that they come out as GR brand and are much more a drivers car than what Toyota has offered in the past. But based on history, I have serious doubts.

 

[BMWAF]

After following up in a Emira FB page and looking at specs for the Emira vs Supra, I've decided I'll wait for whatever is coming next from Toyota (or any other reliable manufacturer). I really like the looks of the Emira and I wish the next MR2 would look similar. But knowing Toyota, I seriously doubt it will look that good or have the specs that the Emira has. Does anybody really expect that the Celica or MR2 will be 400hp. I can only hope that they come out as GR brand and are much more a drivers car than what Toyota has offered in the past. But based on history, I have serious doubts.

I think you're going to be disappointed.

Think about this logically: Why would Toyota create a car that costs less than the outgoing Supra while having more power than it and also be better looking (Emira like). And if that's not enough, think about how marginal the hp increase between the MKIV and MKV was, after twenty odd years.

It's all just hopes and dreams.

 

[KahnBB6]

Toyota has already said so

Does anybody really expect that the Celica or MR2 will be 400hp. I can only hope that they come out as GR brand and are much more a drivers car than what Toyota has offered in the past. But based on history, I have serious doubts.

The performance turbo variants of the G20E 2.0L engine are supposed to have about 400hp in one version and 300hp in another version. In non-street legal racing tune they have had it at 600hp in a Lexus RC test car. It's likely going to be capable of plenty more in the hands of 3rd party tuners.

 

[Ron L]

Toyota has already said so


The performance turbo variants of the G20E 2.0L engine are supposed to have about 400hp in one version and 300hp in another version. In non-street legal racing tune they have had it at 600hp in a Lexus RC test car. It's likely going to be capable of plenty more in the hands of 3rd party tuners.

I'm not much interested in 3rd party tuners. I've had my share of bad experiences with them. I want it to be 400hp from GR.

 

[swrdply400mrelay]

I would really hope the MkVI Supra would have a 6 cylinder and more than 400 hp.

It concerns me the new CEO is a finance guy, as I’m afraid they may cancel their plans. They definitely need to downsize their line up and trim variants.

Not sure if it’s possible but I wonder if they developed modular platforms.

Perhaps 86 and MR2 share a platform, one being FR and the other MR. 86 get the G16 and MR2 gets the defined G20.

GRC and Celica also share a platform, one being a HB and the other a coupe.

Supra and LC share a new platform, hopefully with a 6 cylinder and a manual option for the Supra. Which engine? A 6 cylinder version of the G20 vs Mazda’s 3.3 L beefed up.

Also wouldn’t mind seeing a retuned S58 as the new generation will have a pre-combustion chamber and be able to pass EU emissions.

But I realize some of these things will just be a fantasy of mine

 

[KahnBB6]

I'm not much interested in 3rd party tuners. I've had my share of bad experiences with them. I want it to be 400hp from GR.

Understandable. But it does sound like you'll get your wish in a 400-ish hp G20E turbo engine from the factory.

 

[KahnBB6]

I would really hope the MkVI Supra would have a 6 cylinder and more than 400 hp.

It concerns me the new CEO is a finance guy, as I’m afraid they may cancel their plans. They definitely need to downsize their line up and trim variants.

Not sure if it’s possible but I wonder if they developed modular platforms.

Perhaps 86 and MR2 share a platform, one being FR and the other MR. 86 get the G16 and MR2 gets the defined G20.

GRC and Celica also share a platform, one being a HB and the other a coupe.

Supra and LC share a new platform, hopefully with a 6 cylinder and a manual option for the Supra. Which engine? A 6 cylinder version of the G20 vs Mazda’s 3.3 L beefed up.

Also wouldn’t mind seeing a retuned S58 as the new generation will have a pre-combustion chamber and be able to pass EU emissions.

But I realize some of these things will just be a fantasy of mine

The new CEO concerns me too but the GR projects are already far along... and they're Akio Toyoda's pet projects. I don't think he's going to do something to upset the chairman.

Also the "G" engine programs have been going on for many years now with a very clear plan as to how the architectures are going to be used. Furthermore they've developed the G16E and G20E (especially the G20E) with more than just performance GR vehicle applications in mind. These were very smart long term R&D investments IMO.

It also still stands that with the G16E's R&D still paying for itself it's entirely possible for Toyota to join two of them together to make an inline-six.

...And recently with the planned launch of the ultra-luxury Century brand it's been hinted that a 6.0L V-12 twin turbo hybrid engine will be used.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a70332862/toyota-twin-turbo-v12-hybrid-century-coupe-report/

You can create a V-12 by mating together two I-6's. This is originally how Toyota created the 1GZ-FE 5.0L V12 for the 1997 Century limo by starting from two 2.5L 1JZ I-6's.

It has been suspected that mating two 2.0L G20E's together is how the 4.0L V8 in the GR GT was created.

If they are really going to have a 6.0L V-12 it would certainly be hard to not imagine that taking two 3.0L I-6's in a "V" to form a new crankshaft would be one way to do it with an overall modular engine development program.

If the Century brand's V-12 is moving forward through R&D I would find it very surprising if we didn't also see a new Toyota I-6 engine for the Supra MKVI and at least one other model (Lexus coupe).

That would be quite a lot of ground that the original G16E design investment has covered if it will be used for: the GR Yaris, GR Corolla, Lexus LBX, potentially in other small frame Toyotas... and as the starting basis for an I-6 which would itself be the starting basis for a V-12.

The BMW partnership has come to an end after this year other than for long term parts support for the MKV and B58C&D.

The upcoming MR2 won't be sharing a platform with the next 86. Far too different. It's more likely that the MR2 and Celica will be sharing major hardware and possibly more in terms of chassis and/or subframe architecture.

 

[Captain_Kirk]

Toyota VP Hiroki Nakajima: “the Celica is… that's a daddy car, right?”

Hotly anticipated new Celica is the executive vice president’s “personal dream”

Toyota is actively working on a new Celica. This much we know already, based on rumblings in the industry, whisperings on the media grapevine, and the fact that one of Toyota’s top brass blurted it out two years ago. All subtle clues, you see.

Toyota’s bosses still aren’t allowed to say it openly, apparently, but speaking at the 24 Hours of Le Mans last weekend, executive vice president and member of the board of directors Hiroki Nakajima gave some invaluable background on what might be (read ‘is definitely’) behind the company’s push towards sportier cars. Celica included.

“Oh my God!” exclaimed Nakajima-san, when quizzed by TG about future GR models. “So, through motorsport activity, we would like to provide a better car. This is the most important element for us, from an engineering point of view, right? To get that fruitful result through motorsports.

“In a sense, we would like to provide [a] much more motorsports vehicle. Originally [with the] GR86, we partnered with Subaru; the Supra, we partnered with BMW. To be honest with you, we would like to provide the new car by ourselves.

“So we decided to develop the GR Yaris, and now the GR Corolla. And maybe next is… you know the name the Celica?” TG nods. “Oh! Do you like it?” TG nods again. “Oh! Me too. [It’s] my personal dream.

“Anyway, the Celica is… that's a daddy car, right? We develop the Celica in the future. Near, near future. My colleagues make a big effort to develop…” he tails off. “Just one word. Celica is my dream!” Translation: all this is his opinion for now. Nod, wink, etcetera.

And what of the Supra? Production of that joint venture with BMW ended earlier this year, having barely quickened the pulse despite the eventual (and worthwhile) u-turn on a manual version. Could a new one – fully embossed with Toyota DNA this time – be on the cards?

“The Supra? There is no information from Toyota Motor Corporation, I think.” Cue laughter in the room. “GR Corolla, GR Yaris, for example GR Celica – for example! – this [contributes] to expand the sales volume of the original Celica, original Corolla, original Yaris. This is a good harmonisation. This is a mass production area into the original car, right? Maybe Supra is another…

“But personally in the future… like a Supra. Like a Supra… personally!” We get the picture, this is all hypothetical. But what has Toyota got in its back catalogue that’s ‘like’ a two-seater sportscar? That’s right folks… the MR2. Hypothetically, of course.

Explains why the Japanese brand – dominating the WRC, winning Le Mans for the sixth time this weekend, and attached to Haas in F1 – is so heavily involved in racing.

“Motorsports for development, very exciting for engineers,” explains Nakajima-san. “That's a point. We don't care about the result. No, no, no. Engineers focus on the engineering.

“Such kind of behaviour is key to success, to survive in the market. So, as much as possible we’d like to support the sportscar area. That’s my passion.”

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/interview/toyota-vp-hiroki-nakajima-celica-thats-a-daddy-car-right

 

[BMWAF]

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/interview/toyota-vp-hiroki-nakajima-celica-thats-a-daddy-car-right

Did you read the article? It reads like a third hand translation from BestCar Magazine. And for all those words.. says pretty much nothing.

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