Are these tires cooked or could I juice out another session?

[Rta95]

Switched to my winter wheels and after inspecting my summer/track wheels, I was curious to get other's opinions on the condition. See images below. RT660s. I got a proper alignment with more camber this year after putting in camber plates. I've tracked them for two years now. They definitely don't grip or hook like they used to but maybe need another heat cycle?

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[razorlab]

Two years? How many events? tread wise most of those look better than tires after one event for me. I would imagine they are past heat cycled out by now though.

 

[Rta95]

Two years? How many events? tread wise most of those look better than tires after one event for me. I would imagine they are past heat cycled out by now though.

I'd say like 8 ish events?

 

[TBK]

Send it

 

[Rocksandblues]

2 years? At your easy pace you could do a lot more with those. 2 years and several winters are way longer than I would ever run a tire. I am lucky to get 4 weekends out of a set.

 

[razorlab]

I'd say like 8 ish events?

Between that data point and your statement around grip level, they sound heat cycled out.

 

[Subydude]

The RT660 is well known for heat cycling out long before the tread wears out. Pace falls off a good bit along with grip, and the tread hardens up so they look like they're still good to go, but are slow. If you're just doing track days and not chasing times then they're good to go. If you want to go quick then it's time to bin them and get something that's not the RT660.

The entry cost is lower than the 71RS or Yok, but the competitive life is also much lower so it's actually more cost effective if you want better times to buy the tire that's good through the whole tread.

 

[razorlab]

The entry cost is lower than the 71RS or Yok, but the competitive life is also much lower so it's actually more cost effective if you want better times to buy the tire that's good through the whole tread.

Pretty much all 200's heat cycle out long before the tread is gone, especially the RE71/A052/CRS's.

 

[Subydude]

Pretty much all 200's heat cycle out long before the tread is gone, especially the RE71/A052/CRS's.

Lots of tire tests disagree with you on those 3. The 71RS can heat cycle out (I've personally done it, but it was at 1.5ish/32 of tread left) and get more peaky, but it's still capable. The RT660 seems to cycle out at about half it's tread life. The track and autox series that require the RT660 are full of people that talk about buying a new set before a big race so they get their speed back. Conversely, on the Yok/71RS it's more common to see them shaved before a big event if the person is trying. This is why the Hoosier TAP comes at 5/32 to start with vs 7/32.

I've personally run multiple sets of A052's to the cords and the data doesn't show a drop in lateral G. One of my recent sets were made in 2022 and is finally getting to the cords but still sets good times.

Data on the 3 you mention: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/how-200tw-tires-perform-as-they-age/.

That said, I've endurance raced on the RT660 and it was fine. It felt like the Hankook RS4. Not exceptionally good at anything, but reasonable feedback and you had to make sure you didn't multitask the car much.

 

[razorlab]

Lots of tire tests disagree with you on those 3. The 71RS can heat cycle out (I've personally done it, but it was at 1.5ish/32 of tread left) and get more peaky, but it's still capable. The RT660 seems to cycle out at about half it's tread life. The track and autox series that require the RT660 are full of people that talk about buying a new set before a big race so they get their speed back. Conversely, on the Yok/71RS it's more common to see them shaved before a big event if the person is trying. This is why the Hoosier TAP comes at 5/32 to start with vs 7/32.

I've personally run multiple sets of A052's to the cords and the data doesn't show a drop in lateral G. One of my recent sets were made in 2022 and is finally getting to the cords but still sets good times.

Data on the 3 you mention: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/how-200tw-tires-perform-as-they-age/.

That said, I've endurance raced on the RT660 and it was fine. It felt like the Hankook RS4. Not exceptionally good at anything, but reasonable feedback and you had to make sure you didn't multitask the car much.

Okay. Lot's of record setting TA guys, myself and others disagree with all that as well so... *shrug* I'm not going to argue with you on things I have personally experienced and be gaslit about it. No interest in that.

Heat cycled out and still driveable are two different things. Well, unless it's a CRS that become liabilities when heat cycled out.

Tire tests overall are bs.

 

[Subydude]

Okay. Lot's of record setting TA guys, myself and others disagree with all that as well so... *shrug* I'm not going to argue with you on things I have personally experienced and be gaslit about it. No interest in that.

Heat cycled out and still driveable are two different things. Well, unless it's a CRS that become liabilities when heat cycled out.

Tire tests overall are bs.

I feel like ignoring a pretty well setup test with lots of data present simply because it's contrary to your stated opinion is not the best way forward. You're effectively saying "trust me bro" while I'm presenting data from a known, documented source of long term tire testing. Not a very convincing position, especially with a dismissive "tire tests overall are bs" sign off.

In reference to this thread and if these are cycled out, we agree. Otherwise, I did chuckle you thought I was gaslighting you.

 

[Rocksandblues]

Doesn't GRM test tires on Miatas?

Those tests and others give you a decent base line of where tires fall in order but vary widely based on the weight of the car, set up, camber, driving style, etc.

I will say a group of aggressive and podium Supra drivers are pretty well in agreement on 200 tires and slicks and it does NOT always align with GRM.

 

[Subydude]

Doesn't GRM test tires on Miatas?

Those tests and others give you a decent base line of where tires fall in order but vary widely based on the weight of the car, set up, camber, driving style, etc.

I will say a group of aggressive and podium Supra drivers are pretty well in agreement on 200 tires and slicks and it does NOT always align with GRM.

Yep, Andy tests using an ND as the primary track car, although he's used a McLaren before in the past for some things, or a CRX.

These are like using a pyrometer. Generally useful data to factor in, not to be ignored, but also not the end all be all. Tire Rack posts their test data also using 2nd gen Twins which are a bit closer to the Supra in terms of suspension design and weight, and recently put out a pretty comprehensive test. There isn't "how do they cycle out" data in there IIRC, but it's still a pretty solid data point that generally matches with GRM.

Where are the Supra drivers podiuming? Honestly curious since I'd be interested in reading their data/thoughts. Having lived through a good number of import and domestic forums it seems there's a general trend that each one has some sort of tribal group or group knowledge where maybe 50% of it is real (or 30% in corvette forums case) and the rest is just hand me down stuff.

 

[razorlab]

I feel like ignoring a pretty well setup test with lots of data present simply because it's contrary to your stated opinion is not the best way forward. You're effectively saying "trust me bro" while I'm presenting data from a known, documented source of long term tire testing. Not a very convincing position, especially with a dismissive "tire tests overall are bs" sign off.

In reference to this thread and if these are cycled out, we agree. Otherwise, I did chuckle you thought I was gaslighting you.

Tire tests are bs.

Not saying anything even close to "trust me bro".

Miatas that weigh 20 lbs with 5 hp and twins that weigh 40lbs and have 10 hp aren't even in the same galaxy. Which is one reason I say BS.

Tires are soooo car, setup, driver, track, temp, etc dependent that most tire tests are bs.

Tire tests told me vitours were great. They suck shit. Tire tests told me vitours were faster than RE71RS's. They are not. Tire tests told me that RT660 are faster than A052's. They are not, and on and on we go.

The world told me Miatas are always the answer. They are not.

All of this are my opinions based on my experience. They are not "trust me bro" statements.

 

[Subydude]

Tire tests are bs.

Not saying anything even close to "trust me bro".

Miatas that weigh 20 lbs with 5 hp and twins that weigh 40lbs and have 10 hp aren't even in the same galaxy. Which is one reason I say BS.

Tires are soooo car, setup, driver, track, temp, etc dependent that most tire tests are bs.

Tire tests told me vitours were great. They suck shit. Tire tests told me vitours were faster than RE71RS's. They are not. Tire tests told me that a RT660 were faster than A052's. They are not, and on and on we go.

Just putting this into perspective to avoid hyperbole. If you calc the twins base weight and tire width vs the Supra, the BRZ is carrying 73.5 lbs per inch of tire vs the Supra 78 lbs. This assumes curb weight on both with no driver, a 245 tire for the BRZ and a 275 on the Supra. If you bump up to a 295 the Supra actually has more tire than the BRZ and would technically be easier on it from a weight perspective.

But before you cry foul, Tire Rack also tested using M2's: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/test...summer-tires-road-course-test-report?ttid=344.

Obviously there are setup differences between cars, but most of the data extrapolates pretty well. A heavier car with mcpherson strut front will wear and heat tires differently than a light car. If you don't rotate tires you'll definitely wear through the fronts first. We all know this. Tire testing shows a given data set on a given day that can be extrapolated from.

The P1 testing was the same where they worked on cars that could generate a ton of heat, either via weight, ambient, suspension setup, etc. One thing I've definitely found is that you can't base EVERYTHING off a single test, but there are some sources where the data is weighted more favorably and shows more detail. To ignore all sources is myopic.

But yes, the P1 is kind of shitty. The set I bought to test is still sitting on the shelf after 3 days and not favorable times. I can make it work, but it's a very specific setup. One thing Vitour is good at is being agile. I don't like their PR dept, but I have to give it to them at being able to pivot quickly AND listen to the feedback.

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