Chris Harris on GR Yaris and Supra.

[justbake]

Interesting , I like Chris’ reviews most of the time. He does get hung up sometimes in his vision on what a car SHOULD be. I seem to remember him disliking the GT350..... not because it was a bad car but he feels it is an American muscle car and as such it should just be a straight line brute and not handle (like it does) . Really? I’m wondering if some of his dislike for the Supra is the same. He’s hung up on what it was and not what it is. I mean the suspension bits on the Supra are lifted from the M2 which he praises. Someone correct me if I’m wrong here with the suspension bits info.

At the end of the day I could care less though his opinion of it. All that matters is I enjoy the hell out of it.

I do agree that he is overly harsh about the Supra, but the context in which he speaks is important here and it is what I think most people here are missing. He is not saying the Supra is a bad car by any means. He is saying the car lacks the Supra identity and does not differentiate itself enough from the Z4 by calling it a rebodied BMW. He goes a step further by showing how Toyota is committing a lot of efforts to develop sporty cars, like the GR Yaris, which contradicts Toyota's claim of not having enough money to make the Supra anything more than a hardtop Z4 at a hardware level.

There are plenty of nonsense Supra criticisms on the internet, but I do think Chris Harris's criticisms are fair here.

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[DesmoSD]

This is my garage, for the moment at least. I'm happy I had the 911 for 12 years, did all my maintenance, drove it on many track days, wine tours etc. Now it's time for a functional AC, integrated garage door opener, phone charger, in short a conversion from an analog driving experience to a digital one. Other facets came into play as well, but the 911 is going up for sale here shortly, with a little twinge of sadness I admit. I hear the discussions about the Supra vs. the 911 and really think... damn lets just go for a drive!

Nice 964. Is that a C2 or C4? I remember when the 964 was considered the ugly duckling of the air cooled 911's. Now they are among the move sought after. I'm surprised that you're AC is still working. lol

I'm sure you can get a nice return on it when I decide to sell it. I bought my MKIV Supra during the housing crisis and got a sweet deal on it. A lot of nice cars were heavily discounted from the economy crash. I wish I had the capability that I have now to buy back then. That's how Doug at Switchcars got started.

Definitely apples and oranges...and bananas...and plums...and peaches... Lol.

A90 Supra vs c8? vs Camaro/Mustang? vs Boxster/Cayman? vs TT-RS?

The Supra is front engined, 6 cylinder, RWD. There's nothing in this group that compares. The others are mid-engine, V8 or AWD. The Supra was benchmarked against the Cayman, but that's still front vs mid-engine even though the Supra undercuts it by tens of thousands in price.

Pricewise, again NEW, only matches the (loaded) Camaro and Mustang. The Boxster/Cayman and TT-RS are way north of $70K, similarly optioned.

The "under $60K" C8 is an illusive unicorn. They have been selling for north of $75K (if you were an early order along with some markup) and are available CPO/used for nearly $100K. I'm still baffled that anyone is still comparing the C8 to the A90 - they were two iconic sports car redesigns that were introduced within a couple of months of one another. That's the only commonality they share and why they're being compared.

I know we have gotten way off-topic from the OP. Lol.

The A90 Supra is not perfect and there will always be critics. But it's pretty good for under $60K **BRAND NEW and FULLY OPTIONED OUT**

The funny thing is when the MKIV was released, it took on anything and everything; Ferrari TR, 911 Turbo, M3, Dodge Viper, Corvette, 300ZX, RX-7, 3000GT, Lotus, NSX etc. Now it can't even compare to any of those.

http://www.derekspratt.com/HTML/Automotive/1994_Toyota_Supra.html

 

[justbake]

The funny thing is when the MKIV was released, it took on anything and everything; Ferrari TR, 911 Turbo, M3, Dodge Viper, Corvette, 300ZX, RX-7, 3000GT, Lotus, NSX etc. Now it can't even compare to any of those.

http://www.derekspratt.com/HTML/Automotive/1994_Toyota_Supra.html

I think this is something a lot of people overlook. Regardless of how good of car it is, the fact the car moved down market is something a lot of people would find disappointing.

The Supra squared up with the 911 at that time, and the car that was known for being a smaller more affordable 911 was the MR2. This may be hard for some people to imagine depending on their age and because the Boxster/Cayman had not been released yet in 1993, but the Supra now occupies the market position the MR2 used to occupy by being a cheaper smaller 911 (aka boxster/cayman) competitor.

 

[RWhiz]

Nice 964. Is that a C2 or C4? I remember when the 964 was considered the ugly duckling of the air cooled 911's. Now they are among the move sought after. I'm surprised that you're AC is still working. lol

I'm sure you can get a nice return on it when I decide to sell it. I bought my MKIV Supra during the housing crisis and got a sweet deal on it. A lot of nice cars were heavily discounted from the economy crash. I wish I had the capability that I have now to buy back then. That's how Doug at Switchcars got started.





The funny thing is when the MKIV was released, it took on anything and everything; Ferrari TR, 911 Turbo, M3, Dodge Viper, Corvette, 300ZX, RX-7, 3000GT, Lotus, NSX etc. Now it can't even compare to any of those.

http://www.derekspratt.com/HTML/Automotive/1994_Toyota_Supra.html

Its a C2, I see a pretty cool 964 in that pic too!

Just gonna through this out there, one reason I chose the Supra as a replacement for my 964 was the power. It's right in that range where I can push it, find my limits and not kill myself! I raced SCCA Time Trials in my old 944 for awhile and I saw so many high HP cars spinning off the track or parading around slowly due to the driver's limits. I feel that I can make my personal best time in a car like the Supra, or possibly the Cayman as opposed to a higher end 911, C8, NSX etc. I don't think I could push those cars close to their limits like I plan on doing with the Supra.

 

[Matador]

I do agree that he is overly harsh about the Supra, but the context in which he speaks is important here and it is what I think most people here are missing. He is not saying the Supra is a bad car by any means. He is saying the car lacks the Supra identity and does not differentiate itself enough from the Z4 by calling it a rebodied BMW. He goes a step further by showing how Toyota is committing a lot of efforts to develop sporty cars, like the GR Yaris, which contradicts Toyota's claim of not having enough money to make the Supra anything more than a hardtop Z4 at a hardware level.

There are plenty of nonsense Supra criticisms on the internet, but I do think Chris Harris's criticisms are fair here.

It's an evolving world. The Supra has not had a coherent identity since the beginning of it's existence, bar for the fact that it's a 2 door, 6 cylinder sports GT suited it's mission at the time.

Also, according to almost every other reviewer, it does well enough to differentiate itself from the Z4

 

[DesmoSD]

Maybe you mean heavier as-in not as power assisted when not under power? I am not sure?

Personally I have the opposite opinion in regards to the 911 steering feeling heavy. I owned a 997.2 C4S with Sports Chrono and PASM. The rear engine placement is advantageous for braking and putting down power but not for steering feel under load. The 997 series all have the same front end lift under load and hard acceleration. That makes the steering feel very light, almost loose, under heavy load under circumstances. I would think the C2 not having the all-wheel drive of the C4S would even be dramatic?

I did notice a difference between the 2020 and 2021 steering. The 2021 was not as light in terms of power assist. Both could have better road feel for sure.

I agree on the Supra having poor visibility. I had flash backs to my 370Z. At least there are power seats with memory in the Supra to get you back to a acceptable seating position if someone else changes it. There are also the safety alerts for blind spots. Personally I am used to relying on properly adjusted mirrors.

I love the "fake" exhaust and engine sounds of the Supra. lol. I think it adds to the over all experience. Plus you can turn it off I believe? I did not have a sport exhaust on my 911. The 997 series did not have much "infotainment" so to speak of? I had the upgraded stereo and Nav in my 997.2 and the upgraded Supra sound system seems like it's better to my ears.

A torque converter automatic is not as good as a PDK performance wise but the gap is closing more. I think the Supra's ZF automatic in SPORT MODE is among the best I have tried for a torque converter automatic. It's damn good. For daily driving and bumper to bumper I think it's better than the PDK in my old C4S.

Full disclosure. My opinion are just mine. You know what hey say about opinions and body parts. lol. I don't own a Supra yet. I have only test driven several Supras for a total cumulative time of maybe a few hours total. Both 2020 and 2021 models. My longest test drive was in a used 2020 which lasted over a hour easily. I did not want to stop driving. It was that much fun for me. lol. Same could beside of my 911s.

Fully agree. Some used 997s are great value as long as you go in prepared and know about potential issues and the related expense.

The best way to describe it is how the steering wheels feels heavy, almost like there isn't any power steering assist or like running wide wheels. I like the very close steering ratio and how it has more feedback with the road. I drove a 997.2 4S and even the 9A1 sounded different and the car felt more predicable yet different then my .1. I actually didn't like it and prefer the rear traction feeling independent to the front wheel steering.

On the 2020, I set everything to my preference before leaving the lot. I like to have the seat at the lowest position (close floor), the bottom seat raked and the backrest at 0 degrees, similar to a race seat.

The Bose system in the 997 is very good for a stock system. Sure the PCM is outdated but then again it's over 10 yrs old. It still integrated with the center stack and not plopped on the dash like most modern infotainment systems.

I'm definitely not a fan of the fake performance sounds being pumped through the speakers. I like the mechanical sounds and real exhaust sounds. I have a straight pipe on my MKIV I prefer that raw exhaust, turbos spooling and the SSQV BOV in between shifts.

I still want to see the Supra GRMN would end up as well as the M4.

 

[justbake]

It's an evolving world. The Supra has not had a coherent identity since the beginning of it's existence, bar for the fact that it's a 2 door, 6 cylinder sports GT suited it's mission at the time.

Also, according to almost every other reviewer, it does well enough to differentiate itself from the Z4

Except this time it is no longer a GT car representing new Toyota development.

This is definitely a case of Chris Harris’s expectations being set too high, but that is what happens when you tease the return of your halo car with a halo car and deliver a car that does not compete with other halo cars.

As for being different than the Z4, I believe he is saying that that point shouldn’t even have to be made.

 

[BA9092]

"Ferrari TR, 911 Turbo, M3, Dodge Viper, Corvette, 300ZX, RX-7, 3000GT, Lotus, NSX etc."

The few of those cars that are still being made today have been priced significantly higher than the A90 Supra though, with the exception of the Z. But the new 400Z isn't out yet to be considered a formidable opponent. (Keep in mind that the A80 Turbo introduced in 1993 was priced at $40K - that's $72K adjusted for inflation!)

Maybe the A80 and hardcore name-plate fans would be less upset if Toyota just called the A80 a Celica GTS instead? Lol. I think a lot of people are upset at Toyota down-playing their 90s halo car. I learned to look past that and appreciate it for what it is regardless of the name.

Also, thanks Motor Trend, for the flattering reminder:

https://www.motortrend.com/news/eight-supercars-slower-than-a-2020-toyota-supra/

 

[DesmoSD]

"Ferrari TR, 911 Turbo, M3, Dodge Viper, Corvette, 300ZX, RX-7, 3000GT, Lotus, NSX etc."

The few of those cars that are still being made today have been priced significantly higher than the A90 Supra though, with the exception of the Z. But the new 400Z isn't out yet to be considered a formidable opponent. (Keep in mind that the A80 Turbo introduced in 1993 was priced at $40K - that's $72K adjusted for inflation!)

Maybe the A80 and hardcore name-plate fans would be less upset if Toyota just called the A80 a Celica GTS instead? Lol. I think a lot of people are upset at Toyota down-playing their 90s halo car. I learned to look past that and appreciate it for what it is regardless of the name.

Also, thanks Motor Trend, for the flattering reminder:

https://www.motortrend.com/news/eight-supercars-slower-than-a-2020-toyota-supra/

That's the thing though. A lot of them were significantly priced higher and yet the MKIV was giving them a run for their money. Remember how much E36 M3's were back in the 90's, less then the MKIV. The MKIV was putting out 911 turbo and 512TR performance at a fraction of the cost. It would take on the C4 with ease. What can a stock MKV do against the new 911 Turbo, C8, 2021 M4 or a Ferrari 488? This is why Chris Harris has the opinion that he does.

http://www.derekspratt.com/PDFs/Aut...Road & Track - Toyota Supra - August 1993.pdf

 

[justbake]

"Ferrari TR, 911 Turbo, M3, Dodge Viper, Corvette, 300ZX, RX-7, 3000GT, Lotus, NSX etc."

The few of those cars that are still being made today have been priced significantly higher than the A90 Supra though, with the exception of the Z. But the new 400Z isn't out yet to be considered a formidable opponent. (Keep in mind that the A80 Turbo introduced in 1993 was priced at $40K - that's $72K adjusted for inflation!)

Maybe the A80 and hardcore name-plate fans would be less upset if Toyota just called the A80 a Celica GTS instead? Lol. I think a lot of people are upset at Toyota down-playing their 90s halo car. I learned to look past that and appreciate it for what it is regardless of the name.

Also, thanks Motor Trend, for the flattering reminder:

https://www.motortrend.com/news/eight-supercars-slower-than-a-2020-toyota-supra/

Lets not forget about the A70 fans either. As someone who has owned an A70 since 99, I think there is more that goes into the Supra nameplate than just 2 doors and an inline 6. Not that this car isn't a Supra, I am just saying you can't slap a Supra badge on a car without expecting a fair dose criticism

 

[BA9092]

That's the thing though. A lot of them were significantly priced higher and yet the MKIV was giving them a run for their money. Remember how much E36 M3's were back in the 90's, less then the MKIV. The MKIV was putting out 911 turbo and 512TR performance at a fraction of the cost. It would take on the C4 with ease. What can a stock MKV do against the new 911 Turbo, C8, 2021 M4 or a Ferrari 488? This is why Chris Harris has the opinion that he does.

http://www.derekspratt.com/PDFs/Automotive/1994 Toyota Supra/Road & Track - Toyota Supra - August 1993.pdf

Just think how pissed Jeremy Clarkson must be that Chris Harris stirred so much with one tweet. Lol.

I'm sure Toyota/Lexus COULD'VE built another car slotted between their RCF and the LFA to compete against the 911 Turbo, C8, 2021 M4 and 488, but a lot of us wouldn't be here as it would be TWICE THE PRICE of the current Supra.

Chris Harris' tweet ranting on the Supra was not because it was a bad car - he loves performance BMW cars - it's the fact that it wasn't a sole Toyota product.

Yes, we're just going in circles now, but...again... *NEW car*, *at or near the Supra's PRICE point*, there's hardly an argument for a better car without spending at LEAST $10K if not more. Yes, the RCF Track Edition may come to mind since it's a true Toyota-only product, but isn't it SLOWER than the A90, yet costs $96K?

Sure, the previous generations were the original Supras as they were solely Toyota products. Yes, there are many better performance cars out there that are more expensive (new only) or are at the same price point (used/CPO).

If Toyota and BMW wouldn't have agreed to build this car, we'd have to put it in the past like the RX7, MR2 and 3000GT and we'd never be discussing this. Gladly, they partnered up and created a fine sports car car. We will have to see what Nissan brings to the table with their new Z.

Maybe they could've avoided all the butt-hurting and not called it a Supra? Is the name plate the reason for all the bickering? Call it the Toyota Sphincter, for all I care, it's still a great NEW sports car for UNDER $60K. Lol. Who can argue with that? When every manufacturer is turning away from sports cars to build SUVs, I'm glad Toyota and BMW got together and boldly built this thing.

This isn't the 90s anymore, sadly. We, especially those of us on a budget, have slim pickings.

 

[BA9092]

Lets not forget about the A70 fans either. As someone who has owned an A70 since 99, I think there is more that goes into the Supra nameplate than just 2 doors and an inline 6. Not that this car isn't a Supra, I am just saying you can't slap a Supra badge on a car without expecting a fair dose criticism

Agreed. And I'm a fan of ALL Supras, especially being an 80's kid.

Maybe I'll just debadge mine to avoid any further condemnation.

 

[Paolo]

This isn't the 90s anymore, sadly. We, especially those of us on a budget, have slim pickings.

I think Chris Harris is still living in it....


Chris Harris and Porsche VW
A great marketing team.

 

[justbake]

Just think how pissed Jeremy Clarkson must be that Chris Harris stirred so much with one tweet. Lol.

I'm sure Toyota/Lexus COULD'VE built another car slotted between their RCF and the LFA to compete against the 911 Turbo, C8, 2021 M4 and 488, but a lot of us wouldn't be here as it would be TWICE THE PRICE of the current Supra.

Chris Harris' tweet ranting on the Supra was not because it was a bad car - he loves performance BMW cars - it's the fact that it wasn't a sole Toyota product.

Yes, we're just going in circles now, but...again... *NEW car*, *at or near the Supra's PRICE point*, there's hardly an argument for a better car without spending at LEAST $10K if not more. Yes, the RCF Track Edition may come to mind since it's a true Toyota-only product, but isn't it SLOWER than the A90, yet costs $96K?

Sure, the previous generations were the original Supras as they were solely Toyota products. Yes, there are many better performance cars out there that are more expensive (new only) or are at the same price point (used/CPO).

If Toyota and BMW wouldn't have agreed to build this car, we'd have to put it in the past like the RX7, MR2 and 3000GT and we'd never be discussing this. Gladly, they partnered up and created a fine sports car car. We will have to see what Nissan brings to the table with their new Z.

Maybe they could've avoided all the butt-hurting and not called it a Supra? Is the name plate the reason for all the bickering? Call it the Toyota Sphincter, for all I care, it's still a great NEW sports car for UNDER $60K. Lol. Who can argue with that? When every manufacturer is turning away from sports cars to build SUVs, I'm glad Toyota and BMW got together and boldly built this thing.

This isn't the 90s anymore, sadly. We, especially those of us on a budget, have slim pickings.

Why didn't Toyota make that car when the partnered with BMW? They didn't have to make the Supra the same size as the Z4, this is scalable architecture after all . They could have made it just slightly larger to compete against the same cars it used to. Take that a step further and put in the V35a behind the front axle and you have a front-mid engine 911 competitor like the AMG GT and C5-C7 Corvettes. Then you would have a car that utilizes the cost saving measures of this partnership and you have a world class sports car that represents new Toyota development. Of course this will raise the price, but not anywhere near the cost of a $100K in-house Supra.

 

[Matador]

Except this time it is no longer a GT car representing new Toyota development.

This is definitely a case of Chris Harris’s expectations being set too high, but that is what happens when you tease the return of your halo car with a halo car and deliver a car that does not compete with other halo cars.

As for being different than the Z4, I believe he is saying that that point shouldn’t even have to be made.

That a much evolved Lexus brand exists and the GR super sport en route, I really dont think that Toyota considers the Supra it's de-facto Halo car.

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