Let's Talk About CGI (Compacted Graphite Iron)

[Spilner]

JM30-GTE?

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[Jeff Lange]

For what it's worth, Toyota calls the engine in the FR-S the FA20 in all technical documentation, parts catalogs, on the cars themselves, in sales/accessory information. Everything official. The only time it was ever called the 4U-GSE was on some promotional materials in Japan before the car was released.

Speaking from experience, Toyota has had other manufacturers build cars for them before, and how chassis codes, engine codes and other designations end up getting assigned varies depending on the specific scenario. If Toyota is using another manufacturer's engine in a car they are manufacturing themselves, it will usually get assigned a Toyota engine code (e.g 1WZ/1PP - Peugeot, 2WZ-TV - Ford, 1WW/2WW - BMW). Note that in these cases, there is often no suffix applied. In cases where the vehicle is built by another manufacturer but uses a Toyota engine, it obviously gets a Toyota code (e.g 1KR-FE in the KGB10 Aygo, etc.).

In cases where another manufacturer is responsible for sourcing parts, such as the 86/FR-S and the Scion iA/Yaris Sedan, Toyota defers completely to the original manufacturer's designations. The 86 uses the Subaru-supplied chassis code ZN6 and the Subaru engine code FA20 while the Yaris Sedan uses the Mazda-supplied chassis code DB7P/DD1B/DM0S/DM0T/... and the Mazda engine code P5. (Also true in cases where Toyota-subsidiaries/partners build the vehicles like Hino or Daihatsu; e.g. the N04C engine in the XZB50/60 Coaster).

There is precedent here, and from what I know and my experience, I would say that the new Supra will be using a BMW chassis code (J29 it appears) and a likely a BMW engine code (X##X##X#). The use of A90 in promotional material and on the car at this point is a nostalgic throwback to older Supras, just like they did with the 4U-GSE designation before the ZN6 86/FR-S was released. It is marketing only, it's not actually used and means nothing.

There is no engine officially called the 4U-GSE, and there is no official chassis code A90.

Jeff

 

[BRX]

There is no engine officially called the 4U-GSE, and there is no official chassis code A90.

You're most probably correct, but seeing how Toyota used the A90 for marketing I would bet they'll use the JZ for the same thing.

 

[A70TTR]

Jeff is correct; the engine uses a BMW code, but it is not a B58 variant as I had previously thought it may be.

 

[A70TTR]

I don't think that is applied anymore. Was the FA20's (4U-GSE) head developed by Yamaha?

Developed by Toyota with consulting done by Yamaha iirc. This is different from from when Yamaha is contracted to do the work in-house.

To further complicate this, the new iron block I6 for the A90 was developed by Toyota with ex-Yamaha engineers working on it (according to Moto-san).

 

[Guff]

Developed by Toyota with consulting done by Yamaha iirc. This is different from from when Yamaha is contracted to do the work in-house.

To further complicate this, the new iron block I6 for the A90 was developed by Toyota with ex-Yamaha engineers working on it (according to Moto-san).

Random question, but do you know if Toyotas D4S technology was designed in collaboration with Yamaha? Of course, Toyota has been experimenting with DI since the 2JZ-FSE days, which Yamaha may have had a hand in, so I always wondered if Toyota's (arguably) best head technology was developed with Yamaha.

 

[A70TTR]

I pulled up a white paper we have on it, and it credits Yamaha, Denso, and some others will assisting in development, but more or less appears to be in house Toyota design.

 

[GT-Four]

I pulled up a white paper we have on it, and it credits Yamaha, Denso, and some others will assisting in development, but more or less appears to be in house Toyota design.

Any chance you are at liberty to say if it will be present in the supra engine?

 

[A70TTR]

It has been hinted at being present since the beginning (back when all I knew was that the new motor had a different head), but as I am no longer on the Supra project I have not seen the motor in person.

I can however ask and see what they say, but it will probably be something cryptic or with guesswork.

 

[redspencer]

Random question, but do you know if Toyotas D4S technology was designed in collaboration with Yamaha? Of course, Toyota has been experimenting with DI since the 2JZ-FSE days, which Yamaha may have had a hand in, so I always wondered if Toyota's (arguably) best head technology was developed with Yamaha.

Attached is the D4S white paper that I've had filed away for years that is likely the same document that A70 is referring to. Toyota/Lexus credits both Yamaha and Denso with helping to develop this breakthrough technology.

The D-4S dual injection system made its world debut on the 2GR-FSE Lexus IS350 back in 2005 which is why it has sentimental value to me.

 

[A70TTR]

yep, that was one of them.

 

[MA617M]

Fascinating - that the engine isn't a B58 derivative. I am very curious to know whether the B58 will be offered in the A90 at all, and whether the "3JZ/8M/BJZ whatever" will be offered in the Z4

 

[Jeff Lange]

Fascinating - that the engine isn't a B58 derivative. I am very curious to know whether the B58 will be offered in the A90 at all, and whether the "3JZ/8M/BJZ whatever" will be offered in the Z4

These are more important questions for sure.

Jeff

 

[A70TTR]

One of the engineers jokingly said the information being passed around is largely outdated Z4 info. In other words, may not even be current BMW specs let alone for the Supra.

I think plenty of us realize that to be true, but many don't so it was funny of him to mention it.

 

[MA617M]

interesting.

it doesn't make sense for BMW to require the iron block engine, they (I assume) have no requirement for aftermarket tuning like the A90 does.

I'd be really disappointed if the Iron block was only available in the heaviest variant. That'd really suck.

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