Pure600 Turbo Tuning Support? Best software/hardware for 93 tune stock fuel system

[ChrisRay]

QTR FMS, that's pretty awesome on setting a fuel target and it adjusting for you. I call that an "Auto tuner". That's what I meant by self tuing to clarify. It comes from my tuning with power commander with piggybacks that you have to adjust all injector pulse widths individually and timing per cylinder, then they added an auto tune oxygen sensor to adjust to your wideband settings. It made everything so much easier and faster. Holley EFI is the same. Start by locking timing at a known constant for all rpms. You set a base map, set afr targets, set boost to 0 and only tune in vacuum, no boost. Then you start playing with timing to get Max power, hottest burn via pyrometer for cleanest burn before knocking. (This takes experience to not melt down your pistons and other people trial and error is a good start point). I also like to look at excess carbon monoxide, nitrogen, and excess oxygen if I can. (I don't have that tool right now)
After a clean base map, you start adding boost and fueling targets for every couple pounds and let the auto tune correct your base map. Of course you use smoothing and have to watch out for weird spikes in either direction concerning injector pulse widths. It's a lot of trial and error for peak lean HP numbers. I also start with using Wave pulse simulation software for estimating dyno and timing correction and mass air flow if I can (b58 I can not use that software for yet). Tuning can be really involved but it is so rewarding when you nail it right. Also being able to 3D map your fueling, timing and boost is critical for different applications.
I am definitely going to consider a bigger manifold but am more focused at getting the max power before heat soak. Larger compressors always run cooler but the trade off is choke if the turbine if too small. Also, too high of differential pressure between the turbine and compressor can actually load the bearings and smoke them quick. I wish we had compressor maps and turbine maps so we can plot these turbos better. The pure 600 turbine also flows better because of different shape and less blades which will help at higher rpms for a slightly less spool. The AR is still the same though so it only moves the efficiency map up to a higher point but not massive. I estimate that this turbo will make about 50-75 degrees less heat in the HP range I want which also helps with octane of course.
I appreciate everyones feedback, especially the tuners and those that have tried things and have gotten positive or negative effects. Those help us from making the same mistakes.

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[ChrisRay]

As anecdotal data, I'm familiar and have tuned with Haltech, Cobb, and HPTuners. Going from tuning NA V8's, especially ones without VVT, to the B58 using MHD is very different. I would suggest this being an instance of paying someone to get you the tune you want on the fuel you want and making sure the tune isn't locked so you can compare the stock map vs tuned map afterwards for learning and tweaking purposes.

I run the OTS stage 1 tune on my car in both 93 and E40 flavors. Ethanol is generally fine, but to your point it can require some extra care and feeding IF you like to let it sit a long time. The quicker oil changes are mostly irrelevant for us, but the power and lowered cylinder temps are pretty big.

That said, race gas is fine for power. I would definitely suggest a manifold over the turbo, or to compliment the turbo. IAT is still going to climb pretty quickly no matter what turbo you're running (assuming you're running it close to the limit of the compressor map).

I am definitely going to use a base map to start because of my lack of experience with the b58. I am not going to be at the limit of the turbo so heat soak won't be a problem yet. When it is, a larger manifold and/or a pure 650 will be next.

 

[ChrisRay]

Learned to tune MHD from MHD tuning guide, BM3 tuning guide, ECUTEK tuning guide, RazorLab tuning guide, and RFP tuning videos.

however I first started learning to tune in 2018 from HPAcademy, Evans Performance Academy, Greg Banish, and other sources but I highly recommend HPAcademy for first-time tuners, and Greg Banish for direct injection stuff as a foundation before messing with MHD stuff.

i think me and adam started to learn MHD around the same time and at somepoint we were talking on daily basis for couple of months on facebook, we shared tunes, datalog and definitions, testing different ideas until we got good at it.

I definitely appreciate your and Razorlabs feedback. I may share some my early tunes with you guys for help, if your willing? I am going to look into Greg Banish for sure. Direct injection is what I'm unsure of. I'm also not used to working with 14.5 to 1 AFRs. I always start with like 11.5 afr then lean my way out before knock. Of course, I will pull timing as well but like to see the max point that happens first. I would love to know that before hand of course if I don't have to make my motor a guinea pig.

 

[QTR FMS]

I definitely appreciate your and Razorlabs feedback. I may share some my early tunes with you guys for help, if your willing? I am going to look into Greg Banish for sure. Direct injection is what I'm unsure of. I'm also not used to working with 14.5 to 1 AFRs. I always start with like 11.5 afr then lean my way out before knock. Of course, I will pull timing as well but like to see the max point that happens first. I would love to know that before hand of course if I don't have to make my motor a guinea pig.

yeah its fine you can share with me your tune and datalog, for direct injection afr my rule of thumb is to target 1 point leaner than port injection or what you would target N/A in port injection.

11.5 would be 12.5 to me, but you still need to account of driving style and egt.

i would target 12.3 at the top end for street tune and probably 11.8 for track tune, on low rpm 13.2 afr.

For ethanol you can even target another 0.5 point leaner, so 12.5-12.7 at the top end.

 

[ColonelAdama]

I definitely appreciate your and Razorlabs feedback. I may share some my early tunes with you guys for help, if your willing? I am going to look into Greg Banish for sure. Direct injection is what I'm unsure of. I'm also not used to working with 14.5 to 1 AFRs. I always start with like 11.5 afr then lean my way out before knock. Of course, I will pull timing as well but like to see the max point that happens first. I would love to know that before hand of course if I don't have to make my motor a guinea pig.

I keep all my pump gas maps between 12-12.2 afr, e40-e50 is at 12.6-12.8(but runs leaner below 5000 rpm to not crash hpfp)

On pump gas I don't recommend pushing over 85% wgdc either, ideally around 80%. air gets too hot for the fuel.

Then add timing last.

Forget all the compressor/turbine maps. MHD+ Custom WGDC override and PID.

 

[ChrisRay]

I keep all my pump gas maps between 12-12.2 afr, e40-e50 is at 12.6-12.8(but runs leaner below 5000 rpm to not crash hpfp)

On pump gas I don't recommend pushing over 85% wgdc either, ideally around 80%. air gets too hot for the fuel.

Then add timing last.

Forget all the compressor/turbine maps. MHD+ Custom WGDC override and PID.

Thank you. I will keep that into consideration. The Duty cycle of the wastegate is definitely representation of the turbine limit. I try to keep my intake air temperatures below 125° (after cooler) all the time and limit it to no higher than 150 for brief periods as long as it cools right back off. I'm not sure where these engines are running yet.

 

[ColonelAdama]

Thank you. I will keep that into consideration. The Duty cycle of the wastegate is definitely representation of the turbine limit. I try to keep my intake air temperatures below 125° (after cooler) all the time and limit it to no higher than 150 for brief periods as long as it cools right back off. I'm not sure where these engines are running yet.

Just use the IAT timing correction tables so it pulls a few degrees out when its over 125, thats what I do.

 

[ChrisRay]

Just a small update. Turbo is on with stock ECU tune as of now. Engine runs brief periods of 17.5-19.5psi at the top. The throttle plate is closing slightly but stays pretty consistent in the 18ish range. I'm running 93 octane with no octane booster or race gas yet. IAT's have dropped about 8-12 degrees under same load and temperature conditions. I don't know what the pre-cooler temperatures were before starting. Pretty much staying at 105-106 degrees under hard loads with a/c cranking.... couldn't be happier with initial results. I will test with a splash of ethanol and then octane booster or race fuel to see what the IAT's do and/or boost levels before any tuning is done. First Impressions are great as a stock turbo replacement. I will say that spool up time from the hit is a smidge more of delay but the average driver probably couldn't tell, especially if given the test drive at different elevations. I just was in Colorado and had 91 octane. The noticable lag difference is the difference from a stock turbo at altitude vs stock at my elevation of around 2000 ft with 93 octane. So I call it a win. But that only true below 3k rpm. Anything above 3500 is the same or maybe faster? Above 5500 is right where this baby shines! 5500-6500 is definitely more and makes the power band feel very linear, which I love. It's no more of a hard hit, then slight fall off. It is now just smooth.
I was thinking of trying the ots 91 mhd tune to start, then try to tweak it. I was able to test drive my buddies 20 Auto mhd stage 2 tune and the 93 octane sucks...I noticed immediately that the 91 was smoother. Not sure why? Maybe heat soak and timing pull, or ignition blow out? I can switch back and forth and notice right away. I have not tried shrinking the gap of his plugs and retesting but I think that might be what's going on. I need to data log with his car when I get time and might start my base tune from that before I flash my dme...thanks for everyone's time. I can't wait to get started turning.

 

[swrdply400mrelay]

Just a small update. Turbo is on with stock ECU tune as of now. Engine runs brief periods of 17.5-19.5psi at the top. The throttle plate is closing slightly but stays pretty consistent in the 18ish range. I'm running 93 octane with no octane booster or race gas yet. IAT's have dropped about 8-12 degrees under same load and temperature conditions. I don't know what the pre-cooler temperatures were before starting. Pretty much staying at 105-106 degrees under hard loads with a/c cranking.... couldn't be happier with initial results. I will test with a splash of ethanol and then octane booster or race fuel to see what the IAT's do and/or boost levels before any tuning is done. First Impressions are great as a stock turbo replacement. I will say that spool up time from the hit is a smidge more of delay but the average driver probably couldn't tell, especially if given the test drive at different elevations. I just was in Colorado and had 91 octane. The noticable lag difference is the difference from a stock turbo at altitude vs stock at my elevation of around 2000 ft with 93 octane. So I call it a win. But that only true below 3k rpm. Anything above 3500 is the same or maybe faster? Above 5500 is right where this baby shines! 5500-6500 is definitely more and makes the power band feel very linear, which I love. It's no more of a hard hit, then slight fall off. It is now just smooth.
I was thinking of trying the ots 91 mhd tune to start, then try to tweak it. I was able to test drive my buddies 20 Auto mhd stage 2 tune and the 93 octane sucks...I noticed immediately that the 91 was smoother. Not sure why? Maybe heat soak and timing pull, or ignition blow out? I can switch back and forth and notice right away. I have not tried shrinking the gap of his plugs and retesting but I think that might be what's going on. I need to data log with his car when I get time and might start my base tune from that before I flash my dme...thanks for everyone's time. I can't wait to get started turning.

I’m quite interested in the 600. Do you plan to dyno?

Did you reuse the stock inlet or did you purchase the Pure one?

 

[razorlab]

Zero need to tighten spark gap on these engines. I have no idea why people keep perpetuating that.

I run OEM plugs at stock gap on my Supra on E40 up to 30-31 psi out the top of the rev range with zero spark issues.

OEM plugs at stock gap on my M240i with E65, no issues.

It’s not 1994 anymore.

You also cannot “start tuning” from an OTS tune.

 

[ChrisRay]

I’m quite interested in the 600. Do you plan to dyno?

Did you reuse the stock inlet or did you purchase the Pure one?

I do plan to dyno but I have to plan a day to do it. There is none close to me. I mainly plan to log and street tune. I did reuse the stock inlet. Fits great. I did not remove the exhaust manifold and I replaced the turbo cartridge in place. You do have to remove the downpipe to get to the water return outlet.

 

[ChrisRay]

Zero need to tighten spark gap on these engines. I have no idea why people keep perpetuating that.

I run OEM plugs at stock gap on my Supra on E40 up to 30-31 psi out the top of the rev range with zero spark issues.

OEM plugs at stock gap on my M240i with E65, no issues.

It’s not 1994 anymore.

You also cannot “start tuning” from an OTS tune.

That's really good to hear. I am not used to the b-58 engine yet and just assume from experience on all the older engines I have worked on. I appreciate the feedback. As far as not starting from a base tune that's a bummer. Holley gives you as many tunes as you would like and you can modify any of them as a starting point. I will have to start from scratch unless you have a tune file to share.

 

[Rensuhlo]

Holley gives you as many tunes as you would like and you can modify any of them as a starting point. I will have to start from scratch unless you have a tune file to share.

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[razorlab]

That's really good to hear. I am not used to the b-58 engine yet and just assume from experience on all the older engines I have worked on. I appreciate the feedback. As far as not starting from a base tune that's a bummer. Holley gives you as many tunes as you would like and you can modify any of them as a starting point. I will have to start from scratch unless you have a tune file to share.

You might find my app very useful for what you are trying to do.

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