Spied: Toyota benchmarking Porsche 911 GT3 RS (997) for new Supra?

[Craigy]

Yeah, you're dealing with BMW pushback and now the GR/Akio pushback on a team of engineers that work on and off for GR already.

So aside from adding a manual (which was done before GR even came in), what else can they improve upon or further more without driving up the price and being late to market?

Car is already super light, is putting out near 400hp from a 3L, and was laying down better numbers by the day.

They can easily squeeze more power out of 3L, particularly if forced induction.

And they can grab an off-the-shelf dual clutch setup to replace whatever auto slushbox I'm sure is in there.

They could give us that awesome active aero that FT1 had. (I know, too wishful.)

Would be nice to see a carbon ceramic option even if it was $5k+ extra.

OH WAIT YOU SAID WITHOUT driving up the price.

At the very least they could turn up the boost a bit for marginal extra cost. Larger, stickier tire option like Pilot Sport 4S. Hm.

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[A70TTR]

I'll have to ask about power because I thought the current threshold was set for reliability, something Toyota sets stringent guidelines on.

 

[bogglo]

They can easily squeeze more power out of 3L, particularly if forced induction.

And they can grab an off-the-shelf dual clutch setup to replace whatever auto slushbox I'm sure is in there.

They could give us that awesome active aero that FT1 had. (I know, too wishful.)

Would be nice to see a carbon ceramic option even if it was $5k+ extra.

OH WAIT YOU SAID WITHOUT driving up the price.

At the very least they could turn up the boost a bit for marginal extra cost. Larger, stickier tire option like Pilot Sport 4S. Hm.

hahahaha. active aero would come before(Since RC and LC already has one) they give us carbon ceramic brakes none of the F cars have one I don't think even the LFA does.

 

[solidsamir]

Really punishing Toyota there by buying a more expensive vehicle from them.

Lol the landcruiser is designed to run for 25 years, no reason to buy a new one. I’d buy a 4 year old LX570 for 40~k and call it a day. I’m passionate about quality and low maintenance/high reliability and the Supra was a quality sports car. The Landcruiser would be the quality SUV.

I really dislike German cars. I used to sell them part time during grad school.

 

[A70TTR]

hahahaha. active aero would come before(Since RC and LC already has one) they give us carbon ceramic brakes none of the F cars have one I don't think even the LFA does.

LF-A has them, but it does bring up a good point. that said, I've heard a ton of negative things about CC brakes outside of just price, so I wonder if its even worth it.

 

[SupraMaybe]

A70TTR,

Has there been any confirmation as to how much spec-A will cost? Is it going to be any lighter than spec-B?

 

[A70TTR]

I actually have little to no info on the Spec A, but I'll see if I can find out more.

 

[Craigy]

LF-A has them, but it does bring up a good point. that said, I've heard a ton of negative things about CC brakes outside of just price, so I wonder if its even worth it.

They last a lifetime for street use but track days will burn through them, and carbon rotors are quite spendy.

 

[Supraman]

Basically Akio got in the car was like, it's not mkiv TT enough, and Tada goes "well, I did the best I could with my resources..."

So this comment scares me a bit. So were they aiming to make this car equivalent to the MKIV and it fell short?

Because we're about to hit 20 years since the MKIV was sold in the US and to hear that this car was to be equal to or close to the MKIV is not really a WOW factor compared to today's standards although the MKIV was a great car for its era. The fact that maybe 60HP is the increase for a successor car from 20 years ago and we're not getting a true 2JZ-GTE successor engine (as far as we know) it just seems like this car may fall short if Supra is the name that is...

Personally I would've thought the purpose of this car especially if it carries the Supra badge is to be a true next gen successor. I understand the weight savings and new technology incorporated but to give us a car that is just about as good as a car they produced 20+ years ago seems a little short to those who have been waiting...but then again I also thought we would've had info. from Toyota already.

 

[A70TTR]

I think he meant more in regards to a lack of manual trans and there was something about its more neutral handling. Akio loves his oversteer.

Might have had something to do with other items, but I think it was more just the visceral feel.

 

[solidsamir]

So this comment scares me a bit. So were they aiming to make this car equivalent to the MKIV and it fell short?

Because we're about to hit 20 years since the MKIV was sold in the US and to hear that this car was to be equal to or close to the MKIV is not really a WOW factor compared to today's standards although the MKIV was a great car for its era. The fact that maybe 60HP is the increase for a successor car from 20 years ago and we're not getting a true 2JZ-GTE successor engine (as far as we know) it just seems like this car may fall short if Supra is the name that is...

Personally I would've thought the purpose of this car especially if it carries the Supra badge is to be a true next gen successor. I understand the weight savings and new technology incorporated but to give us a car that is just about as good as a car they produced 20+ years ago seems a little short to those who have been waiting...but then again I also thought we would've had info. from Toyota already.

Horsepower is not the only measure of what makes a sports car “good”. At the same time there is a the reality of diminishing returns with power in vehicles. At some point, you reach a level where adding even more horsepower is just pointless. You can lower weight, improve handling, better transmission etc. to improve the vehicle.

400~ hp on a 3000lb car is pretty damn good and imo more than enough for the street. They got the formula right with the MKIV no need to radically change it.

 

[madfast]

Basically Akio got in the car was like, it's not mkiv TT enough, and Tada goes "well, I did the best I could with my resources..." So, Akio goes to GR (his pet project) and says "hey, Tada needs help making this thing faster and more exciting," and GR goes "no problem" (because they have a damn near endless budget and they want to impress Akio), but then other people around Akio are like we can help make this better too! Problem is, car was already 95% complete and the plan was to add more power and test reliability and performance to prepare for production..

so was the 380hp version the result of that? or are you saying Akio sampled the 380hp version and it still wasn't enough?

im just praying all that extra stuff is optional. make it a touring package. cuz all that added weight will turn a sportscar into a grand tourer real quick...

 

[mas921]

Yeah, you're dealing with BMW pushback and now the GR/Akio pushback on a team of engineers that work on and off for GR already.

So aside from adding a manual (which was done before GR even came in), what else can they improve upon or further more without driving up the price and being late to market?

Car is already super light, is putting out near 400hp from a 3L, and was laying down better numbers by the day.

If i may think out loud about what they can further improve

Thinking in GRMN's perspective, they have had extensive racing experience. For example Nurburgring, one would often go with softer front rebound and but stiffer bushings in such bumpy track. so in that mentality; to get the car "fun to drive" won't exactly to make it oversteer as in tail happy, its exactly the contrary ^_^

I drift and attend time attacks, and i only swap tires (unless the track demands certain change). Drift builds are in fact grip builds, you want the car to naturally default to straighten up, think how the steering springs back to center? yeah? now the whole car should do that lol, to save you when you go too far.

So what I thought to myself from Akio wanting the car oversteer happy, is that he most probably meant more planted rear end that gives more confidence when oversteering on driver inputs.

This can be done by stiffer rear diff bushings or even solid subframe ones for max rear rigidity (just like the current M4, the rear axle has solid bushings!) and chassis bracing. perhaps for the target streetable NVH the car was a bit soft in the rear?, like 95% of other factory cars really. Solid/stiffer bushings would require reworking the NVH isolation in the rear, but i would go with 4-5lbs of extra noise absorbing mats in the trunk but with rock solid rear axle any day!

Thats what i did actually in my daily driver, so confident about its limits, i can exactly feel what the rear tyre is doing, and the extra noise is sucked up by them mats. also note am not talking about springs or shocks, so "solid" here is not related to "harsh ride".

Speaking of shocks, Another approach was when Tada-san did something similar in the 86 vs BRZ where the 86 had its shocks tuned for bit more oversteer. I assume this is a more cost effective method since only the shocks are being re-tuned not the rear subframe Assembly. i guess this also can be done at the end of engineering cycle ha?

One more approach is to rework the "kinematics" of both ends of the car, in another words how the wheel alignment interacts with the wheel motion (camber gain, toe gain...etc.) these too are often get re-tuned given specific race experience, which GRMN has tons of. i remember how going from -0.16" toe in to 0.08" toe out really woke up the 350z's steering, doing the opposite to the rear made me hold more drift angle, or get on the gas earlier in autox. one can't imagine how tiny change kinematic changes the car behavior.

Another example of this, Nissan lowered front roll center of the 'DBA' R35 GT-R, which goes against the books! (see all those "bump steer corrections kits" sold by whiteline and et.al? they raise the roll center, not lower it) but after testing that in their VLN24 cars, they actually liked the behavior better.

so i believe there is a plethora of fricken-awesome things that can be made out of racing, and Notice how none of this has anything to do with Horsepower? xD

So this comment scares me a bit. So were they aiming to make this car equivalent to the MKIV and it fell short?

Because we're about to hit 20 years since the MKIV was sold in the US and to hear that this car was to be equal to or close to the MKIV is not really a WOW factor compared to today's standards although the MKIV was a great car for its era. The fact that maybe 60HP is the increase for a successor car from 20 years ago and we're not getting a true 2JZ-GTE successor engine (as far as we know) it just seems like this car may fall short if Supra is the name that is...

Personally I would've thought the purpose of this car especially if it carries the Supra badge is to be a true next gen successor. I understand the weight savings and new technology incorporated but to give us a car that is just about as good as a car they produced 20+ years ago seems a little short to those who have been waiting...but then again I also thought we would've had info. from Toyota already.

you're just overthinking. What was only discussed publicly is how Akio wanted more. and the car is way more than just its engine.

 

[A70TTR]

Well, to be fair, im less afraid of GR as I am the other divisions coming in, but overall I'd like to see some cohesion.

If GR manages to tune the car with Tada and they can keep it lightweight while tuning the chassis dynamics, all in a decent timeframe, then awesome!

so was the 380hp version the result of that? or are you saying Akio sampled the 380hp version and it still wasn't enough?

im just praying all that extra stuff is optional. make it a touring package. cuz all that added weight will turn a sportscar into a grand tourer real quick...

those are my fears as well, despite the fact that the Supra really was more of a grand tourer/japanese muscle car (that handled).

as to Akio's comments, my understanding is that the car was already going to have 380hp+/- to be competitive, so Akio's comments are likely more to do with handling and possibly adding some overall racing pedigree, but you have to wonder.

 

[Supraman]

you're just overthinking. What was only discussed publicly is how Akio wanted more. and the car is way more than just its engine.

You're probably right...I'm like a mad man over here trying to connect every dot I can on this mysterious car

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