The Lexus LC500 & LC500h, Plus LC-F Talk

[Modal170]

If Lexus previous F Car was any indication and if the market keeps going the way it does. I think we will only see one Gen of the GSF and the RCF after this face lift. I think Lexus will move on toward Hybrid boosted cars or something else heck at this point a NX F is more possible imho sad but true.

Can only keep my fingers crossed for a new SC if they just took the MKv and made a Lexus out of it. Long shot but it's fun to think about.

A lexus SC can't work cause I would imagine Lexus has too much pride to put anything that isn't in house in their cars.

They will be fine spending $$$$$ to have the marketing push of being in house.

Now, if they can take the subframe and underpinnings and replace everything, that would be dope but again, I think BMW would have a say

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[PerformanceSound]

A lexus SC can't work cause I would imagine Lexus has too much pride to put anything that isn't in house in their cars.

They will be fine spending $$$$$ to have the marketing push of being in house.

Now, if they can take the subframe and underpinnings and replace everything, that would be dope but again, I think BMW would have a say

See this is the gray area in the spectrum....on one end Toyota wants to make a true sports car, turbocharged and all yet doesn't want to spend the cheese to do in-house. On the other end, Lexus has a spare-no-expense ideology yet wants to stick with what I feel like are under-powered cars for their class. Again, I hate to bring up the MKIV Supra again, but this was the golden era of Toyota/Lexus.....when they truly were one company sharing engineering across their entire fleet. Lexus needs to start catering to the young, somewhat financially stable, enthusiast market. It is very much alive....look at who is buying the M3/M4's. We don't care too much for NA V8's....if we did, we would have GT350's in our stables. BMW scraped their V8 from the M3, why can't Lexus? A small sized Twin Turbo V8 would be nice, or a super stout Twin Turbo V6 from the LS500 would be ideal to keep cost and weight down. I feel like Toyota as company (including Lexus) has always struggled with researching the market....it was pretty apparent when Tada San said, "Supra enthusiasts said they wanted an inline six" and we got a BMW clone. If Lexus is listening, I would be totally for a ~500hp+ TT V6 RCF/ISF in the ~$80k range....don't care too much for a manual after seeing what the success of the R35 GT-R.

 

[Modal170]

See this is the gray area in the spectrum....on one end Toyota wants to make a true sports car, turbocharged and all yet doesn't want to spend the cheese to do in-house. On the other end, Lexus has a spare-no-expense ideology yet wants to stick with what I feel like are under-powered cars for their class. Again, I hate to bring up the MKIV Supra again, but this was the golden era of Toyota/Lexus.....when they truly were one company sharing engineering across their entire fleet. Lexus needs to start catering to the young, somewhat financially stable, enthusiast market. It is very much alive....look at who is buying the M3/M4's. We don't care too much for NA V8's....if we did, we would have GT350's in our stables. BMW scraped their V8 from the M3, why can't Lexus? A small sized Twin Turbo V8 would be nice, or a super stout Twin Turbo V6 from the LS500 would be ideal to keep cost and weight down. I feel like Toyota as company (including Lexus) has always struggled with researching the market....it was pretty apparent when Tada San said, "Supra enthusiasts said they wanted an inline six" and we got a BMW clone. If Lexus is listening, I would be totally for a ~500hp+ TT V6 RCF/ISF in the ~$80k range....don't care too much for a manual after seeing what the success of the R35 GT-R.

From what I have read, it won't be a bmw clone. I am more glad Toyota took the engine and played with it themselves to make a BMW engine a Toyota engine. Yamaha's involvement made it clear

Lexus can make a sports car but the issue comes down to cost, return of investment and shaking the image of business men trying to meet their monday meetings. That's the problem. Lexus is more or less competing with Audi. BMW has a mixed fanbase from business, teens and old men with sporty driving in every car of their lineup.

Lexus is normally mid 40's man and woman driving.

Toyota is the everyday man who makes cars that fit a need for commute. Sporty or excitement is non existent and can't compete with the storied history of Mustangs and camaros for sport cars. They would need to drop a billion or 2 to undermine that market while selling at a loss.

This is why rather than make a GT that Lexus already makes, just improve on a Supra/better 86 by dropping the weight, make a tunable engine and reinforce the chassis to withstand mods and power from the aftermarket. I don't mind if it is 60k and would prefer 50k but again, their hands are tied.

Toyota can still provide a manual, if they are practicing back at their headquarters that specific model, but we will have to see. Right now, they can only make a comparative, competitive car on the market. I don't see them ever making a top tier car above everyone else unless price was no issue.

 

[CSUfiend]

Not to derail this, but....

This was the last time Lexus had a car that was actually faster than its (top of the line) German Rivals

And I still drive one

What happened since then?

/rant

 

[Modal170]

Not to derail this, but....

This was the last time Lexus had a car that was actually faster than its (top of the line) German Rivals

And I still drive one

What happened since then?

/rant

Economy crashed, CEO changes AND Toyota facing the Weight of the supreme court for the mock recalls at the time. Wasn't pretty

 

[PerformanceSound]

I am more glad Toyota took the engine and played with it themselves to make a BMW engine a Toyota engine. Yamaha's involvement made it clear.

Who said anything about Yamaha’s involvement on the MKV? You know something the rest of us don’t?

If budget is such a concern, then how was Toyota able to use same engines across multiple platforms back in the 90’s and still offer Toyota and Lexus variations? For example; SC and Supra, GX and 4Runner, LX and LandCruiser, etc... I still don’t see how a $60k non-Toyota MKV Supra is possible, when a home-grown RCF is $70k? In other words, couldn’t Toyota have taken the RCF foundation, cheapened its interior, and given it a smaller (potentially cheaper to produce) twin turbo V6 from the LS500? I mean, that essentially what they did with the cars I mentioned above right? I still truly believe that a home-grown MKV Supra would have been possible using an RC or RCF chassis, cheaper interior, and beefy drivetrain all for $60k. Why they did what they did with BMW and pushing a more upscale RCF for $10k more is beyond me.

 

[Modal170]

Who said anything about Yamaha’s involvement on the MKV? You know something the rest of us don’t?

If budget is such a concern, then how was Toyota able to use same engines across multiple platforms back in the 90’s and still offer Toyota and Lexus variations? For example; SC and Supra, GX and 4Runner, LX and LandCruiser, etc... I still don’t see how a $60k non-Toyota MKV Supra is possible, when a home-grown RCF is $70k? In other words, couldn’t Toyota have taken the RCF foundation, cheapened its interior, and given it a smaller (potentially cheaper to produce) twin turbo V6 from the LS500? I mean, that essentially what they did with the cars I mentioned above right? I still truly believe that a MKV Supra would have been possible using an RC or RCF chassis, cheaper interior, and beefy drivetrain all for $60k. Why they did what they did with BMW and pushing a more upscale RCF for $10k more is beyond me.

If I did, I would not be on this forum cause I'd get sued by Toyota so fast . I appreciate A70's restraint

There is an engineers comment who was masked via facebook but has said Toyota took the B58 block to their in house R&D team with former Yamaha employees to help design and change the B58 to meet their goals. I believe they changed the engine heads so it can handle even more power, along with the block changing from aluminum to cgi technology to fulfill the hardcore pursists who wants another 2jz esque block. I don't know if they also played with the engine noise to make it sound even better than a regular BMW engine. I wondered why during the Goodwood videos, it was like Tada didn't redline the car on purpose, like he was holding back something. Maybe about 1.5 to 2k revs more was sitting there on the hill climb and at the showroom, he was a few revs off from letting the I6 scream. Something's up

I mean, on certain tracks, it is matching and/or beating the GTR. Uncertain if it is a Nismo version but regardless it is impressive considering the starting price for a new GTR these days and what a new Supra MKV can do. You could complain about used or new but if you have restraint, a used Supra MKV could cost 40k and now you got a car at 40k that can go toe to toe with some of the best european cars on the market, potentially.

The mkiv was a GT car and the SC was the older, more refined brother but I doubt Toyota envisioned drag strip videos of said cars going 1000hp off a few mods. The supra also had to deal with the fast and furious movie shape it into a racing icon by accident. It could have been anything else and the supra might have been recognized like the nsx. A cool car at the time and filled with nostalgia. Now it somehow achieved classic status from enthusiasts and pop culture by accident.

The issue with the RCF is that it is bloody heavy to begin with and would be difficult to get it to a respectable weight. They could have released a 3400 lb car this way but one, Lexus would not want the chassis and tech shared since I'm getting a vibe that they can be hostile for having their cars involved with Toyota outside of engines in order to split brand image. A70 and Guff can confirm that for you on my behalf in regards if my speculation is right or wrong.

Two, Tada has a love for cornering. He wanted the 86 to have a lower center of gravity than the cayman while have impressing cornering ability. The Supra now will attempt and might have succeeded in surpassing Porsche's handling with a FR layout instead of a MR layout. Having a heavy car will only make it an issue if he wants the driving feel to be as natural as possible with as little computer assistance involved. A 3100 lb 350HP car that had its engine blown at 750HP from getting toyed by the in-house engineers suggest Toyota is on to something. I mean, it has to have something going for it to beat a 2016 911 carrera sport. It might not be the new Carrera S, but god damn the old version is no slouch either. All this would have been priced right at the Carrera Sport if they were to do this themselves if you think about it, maybe even more, and most folks that buy Toyota couldn't care less where the motor comes from as long as it works and can get them from point a to point b.

As I'm sure you are wondering where the fuck did I pull most of the info from.

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/ne...-of-us-spec-mkv-supra.1306/page-70#post-19809

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/ne...-of-us-spec-mkv-supra.1306/page-71#post-19873

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/ne...-of-us-spec-mkv-supra.1306/page-71#post-19845

 

[Guff]

I just want to mention, the RC's biggest problem is its chassis. Not only is it too heavy, but since the RC was just a budget-conscious hodgepodge of GS and IS parts, it's not particularly dynamic, rigid, nor is it designed with actual competition or even basic track-work in mind. It functions great as a street car; Moto-San describing it best as a "Hot-Rod" from Lexus. It's essentially various pieces from other platforms put together with their classic big V8 to make a nice cruiser. That's why it costs 65k, it was simply an effort in costs savings to make a luxo coupe.

Is it a bad car? No.
Was it totally made in-house? Yeah.
Is it a good platform? Absolutely not, in my opinion.

There's no way that the Supra could have been based on that platform, because it just wasn't good enough. And it definitely was considered early on, but the goals for the Supra project were far different than what an RC based car could have created. Hence why Akio leveraged this BMW partnership for this car; there just wasn't existing stuff in TMC to go off of, so a new platform had to be made. And as I've said before, the LC platform doesn't work either, it physically is just too large and complex in design to be used as a 'sports' car.

I understand its easy to say 'what if' Toyota used this or did that, but the bottom line is, we're getting an entirely new platform for this car, and everyone will be better off for it. The LC platform is being used to target an entirely different segment of the market, going head to head with Astons. The RC will continue to be (at least for a little while) a luxury cruiser GT with a questionable target market. And finally, we have a new platform that (from what we're told) is incredibly rigid, dynamic, balanced, and focused and can further demonstrate Toyota's prowess in motor racing, as well as stick it to German rivals on the streets. Remember: The 2020MY Supra is one thing, but the 7 years of development wasn't just for that one model year, it was for developing a platform that can be expanded and developed in the future to be even better than anyone initially thought.

 

[Modal170]

So when is Lexus ever gonna make a below 3500 plb car again? No way they can do another LFA by any means

 

[PerformanceSound]

I just want to mention, the RC's biggest problem is its chassis. Not only is it too heavy, but since the RC was just a budget-conscious hodgepodge of GS and IS parts, it's not particularly dynamic, rigid, nor is it designed with actual competition or even basic track-work in mind. It functions great as a street car; Moto-San describing it best as a "Hot-Rod" from Lexus. It's essentially various pieces from other platforms put together with their classic big V8 to make a nice cruiser. That's why it costs 65k, it was simply an effort in costs savings to make a luxo coupe.

Is it a bad car? No.
Was it totally made in-house? Yeah.
Is it a good platform? Absolutely not, in my opinion.

There's no way that the Supra could have been based on that platform, because it just wasn't good enough. And it definitely was considered early on, but the goals for the Supra project were far different than what an RC based car could have created. Hence why Akio leveraged this BMW partnership for this car; there just wasn't existing stuff in TMC to go off of, so a new platform had to be made. And as I've said before, the LC platform doesn't work either, it physically is just too large and complex in design to be used as a 'sports' car.

I understand its easy to say 'what if' Toyota used this or did that, but the bottom line is, we're getting an entirely new platform for this car, and everyone will be better off for it. The LC platform is being used to target an entirely different segment of the market, going head to head with Astons. The RC will continue to be (at least for a little while) a luxury cruiser GT with a questionable target market. And finally, we have a new platform that (from what we're told) is incredibly rigid, dynamic, balanced, and focused and can further demonstrate Toyota's prowess in motor racing, as well as stick it to German rivals on the streets. Remember: The 2020MY Supra is one thing, but the 7 years of development wasn't just for that one model year, it was for developing a platform that can be expanded and developed in the future to be even better than anyone initially thought.

I see, so what your saying is using a Z4 chassis is much better? The MKIII & MKIV Supra’s didn’t exactly have a world renowned chassis either (the RC being much better actually), but we saw how that turned out. Sorry Guff, but I hope we are not masking one flaw for another to upsell the MKV. I think the masses could care less about a chassis that won’t snap in half going 120mph in a hairpin vs. good ole’ Japanese turbo tough drivetrains. Give me a choice of a car with a great chassis vs a car with great drivetrain, and I would choose the drivetrain allllll day. We are seeing this exact scenario with the GT-86, 240SX’s, etc... Toyota could have easily built an inhouse MKV Supra from the Lexus parts bin for $60k!....and yes, it would have been great!

 

[Guff]

I see, so what your saying is using a Z4 chassis is much better? The MKIII & MKIV Supra’s didn’t exactly have a world renowned chassis either (the RC being much better actually), but we saw how that turned out. Sorry Guff, but I hope we are not masking one flaw for another to upsell the MKV. I think the masses could care less about a chassis that won’t snap in half going 120mph in a hairpin vs. good ole’ Japanese turbo tough drivetrains. Give me a choice of a car with a great chassis vs a car with great drivetrain, and I would choose the drivetrain allllll day. We are seeing this exact scenario with the GT-86, 240SX’s, etc... Toyota could have easily built an inhouse MKV Supra from the Lexus parts bin for $60k!....and yes, it would have been great!

It's not a Z4 chassis. It's a Supra chassis. Quit pretending like Toyota just paid BMW for a car and put a badge on it, that's complete bullshit and you know it. Just because Z4 is using the same platform doesn't mean that BMW made the thing. To do so is to blindly discount the literal blood and sweat that dozens of Toyota engineers have been putting in on a daily basis for nearly 7 years, driven by the exact same passion that we so desperately lay claim to.

And dude are you seriously comparing cars made in the 80s and early 90s to the RC? Of course the RC is stiffer, more advanced, etc, the Corolla hatch is too, yet Toyota didn't go and use that either. That's just the way of technology, it doesn't make them better.

Succesful cars need balance, they need capable chassis and engines to match, to choose one over the other always ends up with either a novelty of an automobile (ie. Hellcat) or a car that leaves the majority of people wanting for more (ie. 86). Both can be entertaining, but a car that has both (ie. 911) is a car that brings about a cult-like following because it offers something for everyone, and is also a springboard for people to take things to the next level in whatever direction they want. The MKIV provided the same thing in the 90s, hence why it was so prolific in so many competitive racing series, and why it became a record holding platform for IRS drag cars, and also was a fantastic street car for anyone who wanted to mold it to fit what they saw as the ideal car. I have owned MKIVs that were stock Sunday cruisers, focused track weapons, and overpowered strip machines, and I loved all of them. And the reason I didn't buy a Lotus for the track, or a Mustang for the strip, or a Merc for the street was because the Supra was more than capable of doing all of it, and more. I don't want a car that can do one thing, plenty of cars do that. I want a Supra.

Whether or not the MKV is that car, we genuinely cannot know until it is in our hands. But one thing I know for certain is that we're fooling ourselves if we think we know better than the most brilliant minds at Toyota, and saying that they were better off 'repurposing this' or 'changing that' because we claim we know better is just an egotistical armchair method of insulting them and the work they do.

 

[PerformanceSound]

It's not a Z4 chassis. It's a Supra chassis. Quit pretending like Toyota just paid BMW for a car and put a badge on it, that's complete bullshit and you know it. Just because Z4 is using the same platform doesn't mean that BMW made the thing. To do so is to blindly discount the literal blood and sweat that dozens of Toyota engineers have been putting in on a daily basis for nearly 7 years.

Whether or not the MKV is that car, we genuinely cannot know until it is in our hands. But one thing I know for certain is that we're fooling ourselves if we think we know better than the most brilliant minds at Toyota, and saying that they were better off 'repurposing this' or 'changing that' because we claim we know better is just an egotistical armchair method of insulting them and the work they do.

Fair enough....ill remind you when the car is released and every nut, bolt, and button on it says BMW. Then, I can officially say I told you so. We already know a major component of the car (rear diff) is a “M” component, no secret there....so what would lead me to believe the remainder of the drivetrain is not a BMW???

Now, does that mean it will be a complete shitbox, probably not....but the argument was whether Toyota could have built a home grown Supra out of existing chassis (namely the RC) at a reasonable price, and the answer to that is yes! I am sure they could have reinforced the chassis a bit to account for higher HP potential, but still we very well could have had a in-house MKV Supra with a in-house Toyota motor in the same price range as what BMW offered with the Z4/MKV duo.

Lastly, to say the technology from the MKIV era was mediocre or no comparison to today’s technology is absurd....and you Guff of all people should know this. Just because they are 90’s cars doesn’t mean they are obsolete. You are forgetting that quality of sports cars in general has gone down substantially from the 90’s til today. So, although the MKIV was heavy and bulky and whatever, it has proven itself to outlast almost every sportscar of its time and doing so with today’s supercar power. Can’t say that much about the majority of new cars. Just look ar Ford’s GT350R oil consumption problem, or the M3/M4’s crank hub and engine failures, etc... the list goes on and on.

 

[Guff]

Fair enough....ill remind you when the car is released and every nut, bolt, and button on it says BMW. Then, I can officially say I told you so. We already know a major component of the car (rear diff) is a “M” component, no secret there....so what would lead me to believe the remainder of the drivetrain is not a BMW???

Now, does that mean it will be a complete shitbox, probably not....but the argument was whether Toyota could have built a home grown Supra out of existing chassis (namely the RC) at a reasonable price, and the answer to that is yes! I am sure they could have reinforced the chassis a bit to account for higher HP potential, but still we very well could have had a in-house MKV Supra with a in-house Toyota motor in the same price range as what BMW offered with the Z4/MKV duo.

Lastly, to say the technology from the MKIV era was mediocre or no comparison to today’s technology is absurd....and you Guff of all people should know this. Just because they are 90’s cars doesn’t mean they are obsolete. You are forgetting that quality of sports cars in general has gone down substantially from the 90’s til today. So, although the MKIV was heavy and bulky and whatever, it has proven itself to outlast almost every sportscar of its time and doing so with today’s supercar power. Can’t say that much about the majority of new cars. Just look ar Ford’s GT350R oil consumption problem, or the M3/M4’s crank hub and engine failures, etc... the list goes on and on.

C'mon dude I never said the MKIV's technology was mediocre, I said modern chassis technology is lightyears ahead, and that's an undeniable fact. Toyota for sure was killing the game in the 90s.

And dude if this car sucks, I fully expect you to say "I told you so", in fact, I would be remiss if I didn't recommend you to do so. I will always disagree with you about the RC platform, but of course, that's just my opinion. Let's just hope this car doesn't suck.

 

[BRX]

Now, does that mean it will be a complete shitbox, probably not....but the argument was whether Toyota could have built a home grown Supra out of existing chassis (namely the RC) at a reasonable price, and the answer to that is yes! I am sure they could have reinforced the chassis a bit to account for higher HP potential, but still we very well could have had a in-house MKV Supra with a in-house Toyota motor in the same price range as what BMW offered with the Z4/MKV duo.

Exactly this. Why couldn't Toyota work on the RC/LC chassis like they did the Z4? Modify it and make it more rigid with a lower center of gravity. It's not like the Z4 had the perfect chassis when Toyota started working on it either.

Maybe it wouldn't have been the perfect track car the new MKV is claimed to be but it damn well could have been just like the MKIV, an all around performer that could be modded into whatever the owner wants, just like what you did with your MKIVs Guff.

 

[Guff]

Exactly this. Why couldn't Toyota work on the RC/LC chassis like they did the Z4? Modify it and make it more rigid with a lower center of gravity. It's not like the Z4 had the perfect chassis when Toyota started working on it either.

Maybe it wouldn't have been the perfect track car the new MKV is claimed to be but it damn well could have been just like the MKIV, an all around performer that could be modded into whatever the owner wants, just like what you did with your MKIVs Guff.

The new Supra/Z4 is not based on any existing chassis, that's the main point! It's an all-new platform designed from the ground up specifically for Supra/Z4 use, that's why it is capable of being exactly what the Chief Engineer wants it to be, completely independent of any existing platform from Toyota or BMW. That's also why the project was so expensive, ie. why the Toyota board decided to make this part of their BMW-Toyota partnership. I agree if Toyota was just using the old Z4 platform then they were much better off using any of their own existing FR platforms. And yes, I still wish it was an all-new platform made entirely by Toyota, but I also know that's not happening anytime soon.

And as far as just making the RC stiffer and better and it would magically work, c'mon guys you can't honestly just believe its that simple.

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