The Rumor Thread - 2017 debut of the Supra and more details

[500strong]

~60k is nothing for a flagship sports car. We're not talking GT-R territory and that's a friggin Nissan. Toyota needs a halo car with a price tag to match so it doesn't cheap out on us. Cheapen the car, slap a 4 cyl hybrid in there or any crap like that and it is no longer going after the corvettes, M4's, RC-F etc. That would be a big disappointment to me.

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[Craigy]

http://www.motoring.com.au/news/201...etails-of-toyota-supra-successor-emerge-52647

Ever since Toyota and BMW announced their technical collaboration in a joint-venture sports car program in 2012 both companies have been meticulously drip-feeding information about the progress of that development.

Just a few months ago, a senior Toyota executive confirmed his company's version of the car would be positioned above the 86 as a successor to Toyota's long-lamented Supra, while more recent reports have suggested delays for BMW's version, which is expected to replace the Z4 and could be called the Z5.

Now, from sources in Japan and Germany, we bring you the latest update on the joint project that will see Toyota and BMW deliver all-new sports cars by the end of this decade.

News of the project quickly gathered momentum late last year when photos of a BMW 2 Series prototype testing in Germany surfaced. It might have been plastered with camouflage trying the disguise the car’s shape and external secrets, but it was obvious from the surfaces and door gaps that this test mule was hiding something underneath.

Indeed, the unique shape of the vehicle revealed a few secrets, including its dimensions relative to the 2 Series coupe, since its wheelbase had been shortened and its roof, bonnet and driver's seat heights had all been lowered, dropping the car's centre of gravity, improving aerodynamics and resulting in a sharper, sportier design.

Then, at the Geneva motor show in March, Toyota confirmed it had completed its product evaluation with BMW and started the development process. A final confirmation came from a BMW boss in May when he confirmed the company had started R&D work and that we should expect to see two very different looking sports cars from BMW and Toyota.

A Toyota insider has told us details of the development mule were held under lock and key by BMW, the company in charge of chassis development for the joint project. Our brief chat with this source revealed the surprising frustration that Toyota engineers appear to be feeling with regard to the details of their sister car. He said only a precious few at Toyota are privy to the fundamentals of the two cars.

We do know that both companies announced they would be splitting development duties into four sections: joint sports car development, fuel-cell technology, electrification technology and weight-saving technology.

Inside this initiative called the 'Silk Road' project, BMW would take charge of the basic chassis and engine development, while Toyota would be responsible for the environmental technologies. What Toyota particularly wanted BMW to focus on was its tried and proven handling prowess and its acclaimed inline six-cylinder powerplant. This combination has already been lined up for the next-generation Z4.

To hybridise this new sports car, Toyota required significant time with BMW engineers to work out the optimum place to store the batteries, which hybrid system would be most appropriate and how to create an acceptable front-rear weight distribution. According to one source, the time needed was twice as long as that required for the development of standard road cars.

Our source says the platform being evaluated for the Silk Road project is not derived from the current Z4 but the i8 plug-in hybrid coupe because it is more suitable for packaging a petrol-electric powertrain.

Unlike the Toyota 86 and Subaru BRZ, which are essentially the same cars with the same engines and bodies but different design touches and badging, the new Toyota and BMW coupes will sit on the same new platform but incorporate entirely different bodies.

"The reason that two completely different bodies can be used is because we are not employing a monocoque design but rather a ‘frame-based’ format," said our insider.

That's a further indication the two cars will share the same aluminium spaceframe chassis and carbonfibre-reinforced plastic body construction, which in the existing BMW i8 is dubbed 'LifeDrive' and consists of a CFRP passenger cell (Life Module) and chassis/powertain platform (Drive Module).

Additional information supplied by our source says that the two cars will be less than 4500mm in length, under 1840mm in width and no more than 1340mm high, with a wheelbase of less than 2500mm.

This means both coupes will be smaller than the outrageously styled Toyota FT-1 concept and even the old Supra, but a fraction larger than the current Z4.

“About the size of a 911,” says our source.

“The Toyota variant’s exterior styling was finalised in the third quarter of last year, but you’ll be surprised at how good it looks. The car does not look like a Toyota," he added.

Our artist’s impression shows an un-Toyota-like supercar-proportioned coupe with a huge front air-dam, heavily flared wheel-arches, 19-inch wheels and a tight two-seat cockpit.

Powertrains have also been locked in. BMW's Z4 successor will arrive in showrooms offering a German 2.0-litre turbo-four and 3.0-litre turbo-six, as well as a Toyota-built plug-in hybrid unit matched with the latter.

Meanwhile, the Toyota coupe will only get two engines: the 3.0-litre turbo-petrol and of course the plug-in hybrid powertrain.

Turbo-petrol versions will undercut 1300kg while the hybrid will weigh in at less than 1500kg, says our source.

While the entry-level BMW variant should offer the Bavarian brand's high-output 180kW/350Nm 2.0-litre turbo-petrol four, both 3.0-litre straight-six turbo-petrol models will pack 250kW and more than 450Nm.

However, when matched with Toyota's hybrid power unit, the six-cylinder turbo plug-in version will pump out an impressive 353kW.

Of course, it will employ the Japanese giant's latest plug-in hybrid technology – rather than the i8's three-cylinder PHEV set-up or the 3.0-litre six-cylinder hybrid powertrain seen in BMW's (non-plugin) ActiveHybrid 3, 5 and 7.

And to help BMW develop the very best plug-in hybrid powertrain for the two coupes, Toyota has sent “a coupe of dozen” engineers to its headquarters in Munich.

Given that its design has been finalised, expect to see the first concept version of Toyota's born-again Supra at either the Detroit show in January or the Geneva show in March, ahead of its global release in 2018.

So this australian website just reported a bunch of supposed new details which are rather befuddling. Supposedly the Supra will get two powertrains... one being a 3.0L turbo six and the other being a plug-in hybrid. Set for a 2018 release.

And then they keep quoting everything in kilowatts... sounds like the V6 will have about 300 horsepower on its own, and paired with the hybrid power it'll have around 475 horsepower.

But there's a lot of reasonable sounding information in there too... and stuff that seems too unique to be made up. So yeah I don't know what to think.

 

[From a Dig]

Interesting stuff... especially in light of the lack of news lately. But if I remember correctly that Australian website seems to post detailed news which often ends up not coming true.

 

[TorqueRules]

It seems whenever news is slow some random site will rekindle the rumor mill with some whispers/guesses/outright lies. One of the details I hope is true is that its about the size of a 911 but I won't hold my breath...

 

[kamran]

Well, they are almost getting most of my wishes! Under 100 inches wheel base, weight under 3,000 (2,900 gas, 3,300 hybrid), 350ish Hp gas, 475 Hp hybrid (I wish this was the gas engine).

I hate to say this, with all the delays, and no GT4's available, I'm warming up to the new Corvettes! I test drove a Z51, and sat as a passenger at the race track in a Z06 as well as a Z51....mighty capable cars! The drivers at the track were Novice and no where near smooth, but the cars stayed composed at all their abrupt inputs without any signs of loosing control! I was pretty amazed! My test drive of Z51 in very tight switchback twisties, was very much point and shoot while the salesman was clinching the arm rest as tight as he could squeeze! He asked me to return the car to the lot with the tires cooled off!!!

The steering wasn't as sharp as a GT3, but I understand they are coming up with tuning programs to tighten it up. The track mode had a little better steering modulation. Same with the magnetic suspension, it's tunable for stiffer rides, but they are a little ways off to have accessible at your local tuner shop! I have them research how tunable/adjustable the suspension is, Max camber, how much it can be lowered, etc.

I hear the mid engine corvette will be a reality once the upcoming Z07 runs its course, but not before. So a mid engine corvette may be a few years from now too...

Not sure how much longer I can exercise patience...?

 

[Supraman]

I think this site has been reported to be unreliable in the past though there are a lot of interesting points.

One thing I found weird is that the Toyota exterior was finalized in the third quarter of last year. If the car is not due for another 2-3 yrs, wouldn't the exterior have to be tested through a wind tunnel for aerodynamics, I just don't see this part being true if the chasis And engine are still being worked on. i would think this is one of the last steps to finalize the car.

Interesting read but unless it's coming from Motor Trend or Car and Driver or Toyota themselves I'll just pass this article off as just another rumor.

 

[Craigy]

Yeah I'm not confident in this website. This time though the stuff they said just seemed too detailed/particular to completely dismiss.

A lot of the stuff doesn't really make sense, like the whole "frustration" about how "the development mule is under lock and key." What?

The whole "artist's impression" is just garbage. Why a random impression when we have already seen FT1? Is Toyota throwing that out the window?

Toyota is designing the hybrid tech for BMW's car? What about the i8 and i3, that tech isn't good enough?

And why is the new chassis based on i8? I thought it was a new platform.

Electrification? Fuel-cell tech? Huh?

Reading it again, all of it sounds like a conglomeration of random Toyota news over the past few years, with sprinkles of bullshit.

 

[EvoX]

Reading it again, all of it sounds like a conglomeration of random Toyota news over the past few years, with sprinkles of bullshit.

This! There's some outlandish crap in there LOL. It's like let's throw whatever we can against the wall and see what sticks. Sucks that bunk articles like that actually get picked up and reported on by blogs.

I mean cmon.. based on i8 platform? Unless they've all the sudden decided to turn this into a $100k+ car, that's complete lunacy.

 

[Supra93]

I hope the part of it being "about the size of a 911" is true.

 

[Supraman]

I hope the part of it being "about the size of a 911" is true.

Same here as well as keeping it a 2+2 seater.

 

[Craigy]

Yeah the 911 likeness has been a common theme since the first interviews of the designers. Although the 911 has grown a bit over the years, it's still an ideal size/weight for a very pure expression of a sportscar.

 

[500strong]

What's the size differential between the current 911 and the FT-1? It seems like it would almosst be 40% smaller than the FT-1. Didn't they already go on record that the concept is 10% (15%?) bigger than what the production version or something to that effect?

 

[Craigy]

Gran Turismo length I believe is 184". If you shrink FT1 down volumetrically by the 10% that calty said they up-scaled it for the concept, then you get about 177".

A 911 is 177" to 179" depending on spec.

 

[Levi]

Still hope it will be a compact (<4,400 mm) two-seater with transaxle and Toyota engine.

 

[500strong]

Gran Turismo length I believe is 184". If you shrink FT1 down volumetrically by the 10% that calty said they up-scaled it for the concept, then you get about 177".

A 911 is 177" to 179" depending on spec.

Lol ok so not quite the difference i thought, the FT1 just looks huge in pics and never seen it in person. Still 177" would be an ideal size. With a TTV6 pushing 550hp (hoping) with those dimensions it could carve up a track real good.

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