Toyota "Preparing" Hotter Supra GRMN, Says Chief Engineer

mande110

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112k seems unrealistic. At that price point you need to be better than the equivalent Porsche (e.g., 911, cayman GT4 with pdk). Both of which would actually be cheaper.

Even with limited production that’s a tough sell. I also really hope this car is not unobtanium. Like I get that they won’t sell a lot, but I don’t want it to be so limited that dealers charge 50k over... That would instantly turn me off and get me to look elsewhere, especially at that price point.




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justbake

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112k seems unrealistic. At that price point you need to be better than the equivalent Porsche (e.g., 911, cayman GT4 with pdk). Both of which would actually be cheaper.

Even with limited production that’s a tough sell. I also really hope this car is not unobtanium. Like I get that they won’t sell a lot, but I don’t want it to be so limited that dealers charge 50k over... That would instantly turn me off and get me to look elsewhere, especially at that price point.
Yeah I agree $112k is unrealistic in the marketplace, I was just converting 12 million yen to USD. If I remember correctly, the GRMN 86 was double the price of the regular 86 so who knows
 

mkivalex

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To be honest I don't think it's unrealistic... If they make it just to say they made it. As a special edition with lightweight materials. As much as I don't want it to be that much because no way could I afford it but I could see it
 

Suggs.OR

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Both good and not so good news here.

Now the Supra may be discontinued with no replacement in the actual year 2025 (thought MY2026 would be the last for production but might this mean we only see it go to MY2025 in actual year 2024....?)?

And the GRMN will only come out at the very end of production? And production will be limited to only 200 units? Also DCT only (which can be expected but it’s still a letdown since the new M3/M4 will get a manual option).

All of this makes me really wonder if other Supra markets will get the GRMN at all. Even they do it looks like they will be hard to even find for sale on top of the usual price gouging from dealers.
I dont understand why production would end in 2025. Is that when the agreement between BMW and Toyota is over? Or why stop producing even if they can't agree on higher tier trims?
 

Dannyvandelft

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To be honest I don't think it's unrealistic... If they make it just to say they made it. As a special edition with lightweight materials. As much as I don't want it to be that much because no way could I afford it but I could see it
What people are forgetting is that those are Japanese market prices. Not U.S. market prices. Generally the same car is cheaper here. Question is, will we even get it?
 

KahnBB6

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I dont understand why production would end in 2025. Is that when the agreement between BMW and Toyota is over? Or why stop producing even if they can't agree on higher tier trims?
Because both BMW and Toyota planned the MKV Supra and Z4 production cycle that way. BMW no longer wants to produce a Z4 and Toyota and Tetsuya Tada don’t want this generation Supra to ever be a hybrid which is a company-wide mandate from MY2026 onward. So for the Supra at least production will end just before their whole lineup goes all-hybrid or offers at least one hybrid trim level for each and every model.

...which would mean to produce it longer than planned there would have to be substantial investment in a hybrid A90 right now... which Tada-san is not willing to do in order to keep the A90 series as a pure gasoline-turbo only performance model.
 

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There’s still a lot of time for the details to be hashed out. But an S58 in a Supra should be good news to everyone I just hope

- 5000+ units in the US
- Price below $80k

(Then if we could get the same digital dash as the new M cars that would be icing on the cake)

5000 might sound like a lot but there’s nothing holding bmw back loook at how many M3s they sell
 

Suggs.OR

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Because both BMW and Toyota planned the MKV Supra and Z4 production cycle that way. BMW no longer wants to produce a Z4 and Toyota and Tetsuya Tada don’t want this generation Supra to ever be a hybrid which is a company-wide mandate from MY2026 onward. So for the Supra at least production will end just before their whole lineup goes all-hybrid or offers at least one hybrid trim level for each and every model.

...which would mean to produce it longer than planned there would have to be substantial investment in a hybrid A90 right now... which Tada-san is not willing to do in order to keep the A90 series as a pure gasoline-turbo only performance model.

This makes a lot of sense. thanks for clarifying. Glad I got one now.
 
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https://www.autoblog.com/2020/07/11/toyota-supra-rumor-bmw-m3-engine/

Limited-edition Toyota Supra rumored to get BMW M3 engine in 2023

200-unit run would be a final hurrah before Supra dies in 2025

In car design, the term "power bulge" originally referred to a swollen area of the hood necessary to create clearance for an engine component or a larger, more powerful engine. Now the term could mean a mere cosmetic flourish to make a car look like it's harnessing potent go. The 2020 Toyota Supra features a slight cosmetic bulge. A whopper of a report in Japan's Best Car magazine (translated), via Motor1, says that come 2023, the Supra's hood could get the kind of power bulge its buyers would love. That year is apparently when BMW's M division will send Toyota 200 units of the 3.0-liter twin-turbo S58 engine for a special-edition Supra. What's even stranger than all this is that the way Best Car has written its report (via Google Translate, naturally): Information on the engine export program came from Supra chief engineer Tetsuya Tada himself.

The S58 is right now being spread throughout the compact M lineup, next to appear in the M3 and M4 after debuting on the X3 M and X4 M. If we go back exactly one year, last July Autocar spoke to M division boss Markus Flasch about the chance of an M3-powered Supra. Flasch emphasized the small chance of such an eventuality, calling the hypothetical "an interesting idea, if unlikely for now. It would be a lot for us to give away, you might say." Stressing the slim possibility, he added that his M team might not be happy about sharing its newest piece of work, before asking, "Why would we sell it before we had chance to use it ourselves in all the places we plan to?" Still, he didn't rule it out, tempering all of his previous doubts with, "But I'd never say never."

The M division has only once sold its engines to a third party, when the S70 V12 traveled from Munich to Woking, England, to serve in the McLaren F1.

By 2023, though, the S58 will have been installed in all the places M has planned — at least, in all the places we know of so far. According to the magazine, execs at M resisted, but Tada convinced the Germans to relent. It's also likely that by 2023, more powerful versions of the S58 will have appeared, so the Supra could get the 'regular old' inline-six. At the moment, that means output of either 473 horses and 442 pound-feet of torque, or 503 horsepower and 442 lb-ft when flicked into Competition guise. Either one would make a healthy upgrade over the 382 hp and 368 lb-ft in the current Supra, figures produced by BMW's B58 3.0-liter turbocharged straight-six that was the basis for the S58. The grunt gap won't be so large in three years, though, Tada telling Autoblog last year, "With a sports car, the promise is to offer more performance with each additional version. And we can expect additional versions pretty much every year."

Another odd bit in the Best Car piece is that Toyota will apparently hook the S58 to the seven-speed M-DCT transmission. The present M2 Competition uses that gearbox, being the last compact M in line to switch to the new regime. The new M cars moving to the S58, like the X3 M, X4 M, and coming M3 and M4, employ an eight-speed M Sport Steptronic torque-converter automatic as standard. If any of Best Car's information is true, it's possible that Toyota sticking with a hand-me-down gearbox helped Tada convince M to open up the storehouse. The coming M3 and M4 will include the option for a manual transmission in lesser-powered trims, but it's best to forget about a stickshift in a Supra, if only to forestall any disappointment.

The 200-unit production cap for a potentially 503-hp Supra might also have benefited the case — to stress, again, if any of this is true. A special edition dovetails with Best Car's trifecta of jaw-droppers, this being the penultimate line in the article: "The Supra GRMN, which will appear at least in 2023, will be the final edition of the current Supra." Tada told Australia's Motoring last year that he won't develop a hybrid Supra because of the compromises required, which would put the Supra outside of Toyota's global strategy to develop an electrified version of every model by 2025. An M-ified high-dollar Supra would ensure a bang instead of a whimper before the coupe goes out.

Best Car asked about a price of around 12 million yen, a little more than $112,000 U.S. That's not apples-to-apples for a market comparison, since Japan's 3.0-liter Supra starts at the U.S. equivalent of $69,399, and our entry-level Supra 3.0-liter begins at $50,990. If this unicorn Supra gets built and if it comes our way, though, a bulging premium should be expected, because with great power comes great MSRP.
 

KahnBB6

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This 200-unit production run for the GRMN is still ridiculously low for a Supra even just for the Japanese market.

I do hope they sell at least as many additional cars for the U.S. market and the same for any other markets the Supra sells in with the B58D.

After all, STI just released a 209-unit run of S209 WRX STI’s for the U.S. and they have to have sold a number of additional ones in Japan at least.

On the other hand IF the GRMN comes to the U.S. at all then it leaves a convenient legally reproducible smog legal engine swap template for those who want to go to the trouble of taking any other 2023-2026 model year S58 engine and swap it into their Supra MKV.

Not that it wouldn’t have already been possible but having a version of the S58 built into a commercially available Supra makes it that much easier since many little parts will be available as bolt-in items to make it happen.
 

kona61

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This 200-unit production run for the GRMN is still ridiculously low for a Supra even just for the Japanese market.

I do hope they sell at least as many additional cars for the U.S. market and the same for any other markets the Supra sells in with the B58D.

After all, STI just released a 209-unit run of S209 WRX STI’s for the U.S. and they have to have sold a number of additional ones in Japan at least.

On the other hand IF the GRMN comes to the U.S. at all then it leaves a convenient legally reproducible smog legal engine swap template for those who want to go to the trouble of taking any other 2023-2026 model year S58 engine and swap it into their Supra MKV.

Not that it wouldn’t have already been possible but having a version of the S58 built into a commercially available Supra makes it that much easier since many little parts will be available as bolt-in items to make it happen.
I still see the problem being the electronics. Without that, it would be damn near impossible to replicate a factory S58.
 

KahnBB6

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I still see the problem being the electronics. Without that, it would be damn near impossible to replicate a factory S58.
You’re correct. And that means it will come down to how easy it will be to get equivalent BMW S58 electronics parts and/or flash the ECU that will come with the donor S58 to Supra GRMN S58 ECU’s programming (assuming someone can copy its code or replicate Its code).

We’ll see just how difficult it will be to achieve a foolproof S58 swap in a regular MKV Supra.
 

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