Toyota "Preparing" Hotter Supra GRMN, Says Chief Engineer

Spilner

Banned
Banned
Banned
First Name
earl
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Threads
1
Messages
1,234
Reaction score
1,228
Location
koreatown
Car(s)
none
Current consensus is that the rear end is an independent multi-link, so we'll have to wait and see until we can get underneath the car and look at the geometry. I'm sure it'll be good though.
Thanks Guff
P.S. anything new regarding the regenerative brakes?
Sponsored

 

Nurburgring

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 3, 2018
Threads
5
Messages
209
Reaction score
866
Location
Chile
Car(s)
911 Turbo, M3 E46, Turbocharged NA Miata, S2000, Mazda FC3S & FD3S, EP91 Starlet, EK9 Type R, EG6 Sir2, AE86, 3SGE AE86, Evo7RS, F3 race car

Attachments

  • 0 bytes Views: 0
  • 0 bytes Views: 0
  • 0 bytes Views: 0

MLG Tofu Shop

Well-Known Member
First Name
Goh
Joined
Jun 7, 2018
Threads
1
Messages
307
Reaction score
540
Location
Malaysia
Car(s)
Toyota Vios

mrarm

Well-Known Member
First Name
Franck
Joined
Jun 22, 2018
Threads
2
Messages
283
Reaction score
328
Location
france
Car(s)
206
Hopefully the Supra's rear end have plenty of traction.
Hopefully the Supra's rear end have plenty of traction.
It is not the same configuration as that of the M3 F80 but rather that of the E89. Indeed the piece in red in your photo can not be seen from the outside if the wheel is up.
The piece in red in the spy resembles in my opinion more at the bottom of the damper.
see next picture of a Z4:
Rear Suspension jack location 2.jpg

Other picture of assembly:
z4_OEM_mounter_both_sm.jpg
 

PerformanceSound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Threads
19
Messages
1,873
Reaction score
3,357
Location
USA
Car(s)
2020 Tundra TRD Pro, 1994 MKIV Supra TT
Vehicle Showcase
2
Bottom-up engineering vs Top-Down I suppose. They start off as 3-series then get the M treatment, not the other way around. Sometimes that doesn't work out so well. They, of course, aren't the only people that operate this way, but it's this type of process that opens the door for oversight like the E46 subframe issue.

German cars are certainly made to a cost, but so is everything else. I will say that German Engineering is generally not as "well-engineered" as most people seem to think, but that might also be down to a difference in ideology. "Well engineered" to many people (including myself) means meeting a particular target while optimizing the material and process to be as efficient and simple as possible. The Germans tend to try to fix tech with more tech and this generally produces overtly complicated systems that might have some initial advantage over a simpler counterpart, but also has far more failure points. In the end, you have parts that break and that are more expensive to replace, which then makes the system useless until repaired.

For me, the concept of "German-Engineered", which for some reason became synonymous with quality, generally has a negative connotation. Plus Torx and Triple-Square can go suck a fat one. Use normal bolts you sons of bitches! (I recently did IMS repair and clutch on a 987 Boxster and it was supremely awful for what should have been a relatively straightforward job, STOP USING STUPID BOLTS.)
Like Guff mentioned above, "German Engineering" doesn't mean "Reliable Engineering." People assume it's German made or engineered that it must last forever....that is most definitely not the case. A vehicle being praised for its "German Engineering" simply means that the Germans figured out how to do something or make something happen that was in demand by the driver. For example, ABS was designed by Mercedes-Benz engineers as a solution to brake lock-up by the drivers. Believe it or not, the original ABS systems from Mercedes-Benz did work as designed, however, they were prone to premature failures and reliability issues. These engineering principles are instilled in the majority of German engineers' minds to this day. They could care less about resale value, or long term ownership....they want people to have the latest and greatest no matter how garbage it's reliability is. That is "German Engineering" and that will be part of the formula for the MKV Supra unfortunately, no matter how you look at it.
 

Mike Myers

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Threads
2
Messages
322
Reaction score
615
Location
Germany
Car(s)
MB E350e, MB V250, (no longer: BMW 430D xDrive)
Like Guff mentioned above, "German Engineering" doesn't mean "Reliable Engineering." People assume it's German made or engineered that it must last forever....that is most definitely not the case. A vehicle being praised for its "German Engineering" simply means that the Germans figured out how to do something or make something happen that was in demand by the driver. For example, ABS was designed by Mercedes-Benz engineers as a solution to brake lock-up by the drivers. Believe it or not, the original ABS systems from Mercedes-Benz did work as designed, however, they were prone to premature failures and reliability issues. These engineering principles are instilled in the majority of German engineers' minds to this day. They could care less about resale value, or long term ownership....they want people to have the latest and greatest no matter how garbage it's reliability is. That is "German Engineering" and that will be part of the formula for the MKV Supra unfortunately, no matter how you look at it.
So do you mean German Engineering canā€™t be reliable Engineering? If thatā€™s your point, I canā€™t agree with you. Not every piece of shit a German engineer touches will transform to an even bigger piece of gold, thatā€™s true. But thatā€™s true for engineers everywhere in the world. What is the concrete reason for your point of view?

I still do not understand why some of you guys are that unhappy with the BMW/Toyota Cooperation.
 

Levi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2015
Threads
1
Messages
238
Reaction score
315
Location
France
Car(s)
Alfa Romeo
So do you mean German Engineering canā€™t be reliable Engineering? If thatā€™s your point, I canā€™t agree with you. Not every piece of shit a German engineer touches will transform to an even bigger piece of gold, thatā€™s true. But thatā€™s true for engineers everywhere in the world. What is the concrete reason for your point of view?

I still do not understand why some of you guys are that unhappy with the BMW/Toyota Cooperation.
Because Germany is superior and always the best (see 2018 World Cup).
 

Vaevictum

Well-Known Member
First Name
Dan
Joined
Oct 23, 2017
Threads
1
Messages
89
Reaction score
191
Location
Chicago
Car(s)
2018 Camaro SS, 2012 Corolla
So do you mean German Engineering canā€™t be reliable Engineering? If thatā€™s your point, I canā€™t agree with you. Not every piece of shit a German engineer touches will transform to an even bigger piece of gold, thatā€™s true. But thatā€™s true for engineers everywhere in the world. What is the concrete reason for your point of view?

I still do not understand why some of you guys are that unhappy with the BMW/Toyota Cooperation.
People are ready to be disappointed by anything that isn't a 2JZ bearing A80 lol. I really can't wait for all trims of this thing to come out so we can remove the subjectivity from our opinions and get some actual data to drive our thoughts about this thing.
 
Last edited:

PerformanceSound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Threads
19
Messages
1,873
Reaction score
3,357
Location
USA
Car(s)
2020 Tundra TRD Pro, 1994 MKIV Supra TT
Vehicle Showcase
2
So do you mean German Engineering canā€™t be reliable Engineering? If thatā€™s your point, I canā€™t agree with you. Not every piece of shit a German engineer touches will transform to an even bigger piece of gold, thatā€™s true. But thatā€™s true for engineers everywhere in the world. What is the concrete reason for your point of view?

I still do not understand why some of you guys are that unhappy with the BMW/Toyota Cooperation.
You are right, not EVERYTHING German made is crap (i think we all know this from the Getrag V160 in the Supra Turbo). When I say "German Engineering" im talking in the context of building cars as a whole. Again, "German Engineering" is not marketed for it's reliability or practicality....it is marketed as "the first to do xyz." This ideology dates back to WWII with their tanks. It's true, look at any new Mercedes or BMW or Audi, they are always the first ones to introduce some pretty cool technology (Audi's LED headlights, ABS, etc..) overly complicated but nonetheless the first to do it. I'm not saying everything touched by a German is junk, however, German engineering in terms of cars as a whole (complete) almost always fall short in the reliability department. Where do you want me to start?....how about cracked strut towers on a $70k M3? Premature bearing failure on a $70k M3? Complete havoc on electrical system on a $100k S500? The list goes on and on and on. This I can surely prove to you with numerous statistics and real-life experiences. There is no doubt that the Japanese "do it better"...this is in everything we use (i.e., mechanical, electronic, etc...). The Germans are always the first to develop it, the Japanese always perfect it and make it reliable, and the Americans adopt it from the Japanese 5yrs later at half the cost and half the reliability.

We are unhappy because we all know how previous Toyota joint ventures have ended up....except now, it will have a "german touch" added in the mix.
 

Matador

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2018
Threads
0
Messages
358
Reaction score
832
Location
W.I.
Car(s)
'87 E30, '95 Mk4 Supra, '03 Legacy GT
We are unhappy because we all know how previous Toyota joint ventures have ended up....except now, it will have a "german touch" added in the mix.
What other joint venture didn't end up at least being decent? The 86 is an excellent sports car despite being "under powered" and a few minor quirks. Some of you so called enthusiasts really reach for no good reason. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
 

Mike Myers

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Threads
2
Messages
322
Reaction score
615
Location
Germany
Car(s)
MB E350e, MB V250, (no longer: BMW 430D xDrive)
You are right, not EVERYTHING German made is crap (i think we all know this from the Getrag V160 in the Supra Turbo). When I say "German Engineering" im talking in the context of building cars as a whole. Again, "German Engineering" is not marketed for it's reliability or practicality....it is marketed as "the first to do xyz." This ideology dates back to WWII with their tanks. It's true, look at any new Mercedes or BMW or Audi, they are always the first ones to introduce some pretty cool technology (Audi's LED headlights, ABS, etc..) overly complicated but nonetheless the first to do it. I'm not saying everything touched by a German is junk, however, German engineering in terms of cars as a whole (complete) almost always fall short in the reliability department. Where do you want me to start?....how about cracked strut towers on a $70k M3? Premature bearing failure on a $70k M3? Complete havoc on electrical system on a $100k S500? The list goes on and on and on. This I can surely prove to you with numerous statistics and real-life experiences. There is no doubt that the Japanese "do it better"...this is in everything we use (i.e., mechanical, electronic, etc...). The Germans are always the first to develop it, the Japanese always perfect it and make it reliable, and the Americans adopt it from the Japanese 5yrs later at half the cost and half the reliability.

We are unhappy because we all know how previous Toyota joint ventures have ended up....except now, it will have a "german touch" added in the mix.
Your are picking out some single examples, using them to generalize it for the whole German car business. If I would do so, I need to say the same (or worse) about Japanese engineering. Why? I will tell you:
I owned several Japanese cars in the past and 4 of 6 I sold in the end because of multiple technical problems I was tired to pay for. The best two were a 84 Suzuki Swift und a 92 Toyota Carina. Both have been efficient and reliable. They were followed by a Mazda Xedos 6, Mazda MX6, Mazda 6 and Toyota Corolla Verso. Especially the Mazdaā€™s had several problems with the breaks, the clutch and the MX6 with the engine cooling. But I never had a breakdown. Until I owned the Corolla Verso. Two times I had electronic faults that unfortunately forced me to get home with another car from the breakdown service. After it happens the second time I sold the Toyota. Shit happens.
BTW: The BMWs I owned did never let me down.


Long story short: The Japanese are great in engineering cars. But the Germans too. And in between also the Koreans do. And letā€™s see what the Chinese will come to in the future.

So donā€™t be that negative. And do always remember: Without a partnership with another Brand, you wonā€™t ever get a new Toyota Supra. It could have been worse than BMW.


Please excuse my English, itā€™s not the best. But I hope you do understand what I mean.
Sponsored

 
 




Top