When to build the motor? Advice on drivetrain upgrades on MT? Cooling recs? Anyone running pure 900 ? Random wheel question

[Jmanlevan]

Every single MK5 Supra have forged wheels OEM. Not just manuals.

Yeah you're right, with the new wheel design of 2023! That's more what I meant! Thanks Bryan! If I remember correctly, the split 5 spoke OEM wheels of the 2020-2022's aren't though, right? Or were those forged too?

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[razorlab]

Yeah you're right, with the new wheel design of 2023! That's more what I meant! Thanks Bryan! If I remember correctly, the split 5 spoke OEM wheels of the 2020-2022's aren't though, right? Or were those forged too?

Every single wheel on every single MK5 3.0L Supra from 2019 to now. SAI Taiwan produces them.

 

[AJRMKV]

Hey guys I am planning on my future mods and ultimately my goal is going to be around 750-800whp. I know I can get near there with a pure 900 and port injection but I want to do this safely with good supporting mods. This is a weekend street car so I won't be doing many digs or track days. Looking for a little advice regarding the next moves. I have the money to spend to do it right. Current setup: intake/dp/MHD reflex E40 tuned making 550whp/600tq. I have been thinking of doing the following: CSF manifold w/ port injection and fuel pump upgrades, pure 900, clutch, front/rear sway bars +/- coilovers.

1) Top mount is tempting but doesn't really seem necessary or have any advantages for my goals. That being said I am leaning towards the pure 900 but I see very little info about it thus far. Opinions? I hear people trashing the reliability of all the "hybrid" turbo companies so not sure what to think there. Seems like the top mount kits are more reliable once installed and dialed in but overall has more moving parts / room for potential issues.

2) If I am not tracking / beating the car does it make any sense to get the upgraded radiators and such? Obviously the manifold is important so that will be upgraded.

3) Best supporting drivetrain mods to handle and put down the power? I live in the city so as much as I would like to have the car lowered I am happy at stock height so I am not scraping everywhere. Sway bars / end links / coilovers ? The clutch obviously will be upgraded.

4) From the interwebs it seems like B58's start blowing around 700whp. Is there any benefit of building the motor for my goals or let it blow if it wants to blow and then build it at that time?

5) Lastly does it make sense to pay 3x the price for forged wheels to save 2lbs per wheel or will it not be noticeable on the street...

Appreciate any help! Merry Christmas!

MT Supra owner:

1) I've head the remnant omega 65 for 6000 miles with no issues. Great kit

2) Just do IM

3) For the street: Front and rear diff mount brace, Rear traction links, rear toe links at a minimum.

4) pick a good tuner and it wont. I went with David Shoup.

5) No

2.) You mention upgrading the clutch, but the rest of the trans itself will need to be upgraded, and I don't know of any upgrades such as Pure transmission upgrade for the MT yet. If you know of upgrades, please enlighten me.

Not necessarily, I have 700 whp for 6000 miles with no issues, just CM1000 clutch.

There's another owner I know with 920WHP on his MT supra with just the CM1000. He has a few thousand miles on it and track days. No transmission issues yet.

For the moment, it seems like this transmission can take 900+ whp with just upgraded clutch

 

[coyfish]

MT Supra owner:

1) I've head the remnant omega 65 for 6000 mils with no issues. Great kit

2) Just do IM

3) For the street: Front and rear diff mount brace, Rear traction links, rear toe links at a minimum.

4) pick a good tuner at it wont. I went with David Shoup.

5) No



Not necessarily, I have 700 whp for 6000 miles with no issues, just CM1000 clutch.

There's another owner I know with 920WHP on his MT supra with just the CM1000. He has a few thousand miles on it and track days. No transmission issues yet.

For the moment, it seems like this transmission can take 900+ whp with just upgraded clutch

Thanks a lot man! great info

 

[SuupYota]

Stop at 750hp/700tq with a good tune if you want it to live.

Solid info.

 

[shaloot]

2.) I didn't see you mention anything about the transmission. Have you thought about the transmission and if so, what are your thoughts? Yes you can achieve those power numbers you're seeking with the Auto Supra's but nobody with a manual is making that kind of power quite yet. Or at least I personally have yet to see an MT car making those numbers. There's only 2-3,000 manual Supras out there, which means there isn't a huge market for transmission upgrades as only a super small fraction of those owners are actually going to want and be able to build a car to the 750-800whp numbers. You mention upgrading the clutch, but the rest of the trans itself will need to be upgraded, and I don't know of any upgrades such as Pure transmission upgrade for the MT yet. If you know of upgrades, please enlighten me.

Any comments on what exactly should be upgraded in the manual transmission other than clutch?

last year I swear most of the feedback I was able to find said that the manual trans would likely be fine as @AJRMKV has said. But lately I’m hearing numerous people talking about needing to build the trans after 650-700 hp or TQ.
Glad to hear AJ’s comments

edit: looking at the pure auto trans description most of this seems to jjst be centered around holding power of the clutch packs. Though I think their website doesn’t accurately describe the individual stages. Can anyone comment on what pure or ATS does to “improve reliability” on components other than the clutches for holding power?

Our rebuild focuses on fortifying the overall holding power and reliability of your transmission. Through modifications and replacement of oem parts to our own billet parts we are able to achieve the highest clutch counts currently available on the market and the most holding power possible. With each stage increases clutch and holding capacity along with additional parts.

• Billet Clutch Hub
• Upgraded Clutches and Steels Throughout Entire Transmission
• All New Gaskets, Seals and Rings
• Upgrades O-Rings and Seals Within The Valve-Body Assembly
• Cog Drives and Shaft Modified For Better Lubrication Transfer
• Heat Treated & Hard Anodized Clutch Baskets
• Brand New Pan, Filter Element & Fluid
• Laser Etched Logo

 

[Gryph8n]

Here is my build log from another site. Jesse DeBears built my car and did a great job. Should answer your questions. I would suggest a cooling manifold, upgraded transmission oil cooler and upgraded transmission. I used PureDrivetrainSolutions and went with stage 1. Stage 1 if you only plan on roll racing and tracking. Stage 2 with race torque convertor and transfer case if you are really serious about drag racing and using slicks.

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2137521

 

[FuzzyRev]

Just remember that the MT gearbox is also a ZF product, and there's at least one BMW (besides the Z4 Handschalter) that uses the same internal gearset as the MKV version. I don't remember which model it was, but I'm just pointing out that there's more of these boxes out there than just the <5,000 MT Supras, so we're not the only drivers of potential upgrade demand.

 

[mdpalmer]

Regarding limits of the manual transmission, it really depends on how you drive, shock loading is generally the easiest way to break them. Probably part of reason why BMW put clutch delay valves and dual mass flywheels on these cars, to protect the rest of the driveline.

FWIW heres an old post with some notes on the supra's manual trans and how it fits in the BMW/ZF lineup.

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/this-is-the-manual-toyota-supra-official-release.13228/post-195269

Wikipedia info on ZF manual trans, for reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_S6-53_transmission

If I understand the naming convention for the Supra's manual trans, its "rated (input) torque" sounds like 500 N*m which is "coincidentally" 369 ft*lb torque.... The rated engine torque for the Supra if anyone actually believes the numbers. I also believe the auto 8HP 51 is rated for the same input torque. And those have been shown to put up with quite a bit of abuse.

Its anyone's guess besides the powertrain engineers what the rated torque means (like a steady state torque instead of a shock load torque which is intermittent, short duration, and probably much higher), and what kind of margins of safety they design the transmission to.

I also found this interesting, this website says a bunch of internal parts on the supra's MT are named with GS6-53 designation which I believe are used in the G series M BMWs.

https://www.automaticchoice.com/en/gs6l50tz-manual-transmission-catalogue

Anyway I thought it is interesting that the transmission is probably not that different internally than other BMW boxes, so I would guess its durability is probably similar to the ones in the late model M cars.

I'm interested to see where you take the car, keep us posted.

 

[Kennith82]

Can anyone comment on what pure or ATS does to “improve reliability” on components other than the clutches for holding power?

Pure and ATS trans upgrades are auto only, not intended for manual.

For reference though to answer the question, they replace the failure prone E and C clutch hubs, added friction discs on C and E to hold torque, and machined pistons to accommodate clearance.

 

[AJRMKV]

Regarding limits of the manual transmission, it really depends on how you drive, shock loading is generally the easiest way to break them. Probably part of reason why BMW put clutch delay valves and dual mass flywheels on these cars, to protect the rest of the driveline.

FWIW heres an old post with some notes on the supra's manual trans and how it fits in the BMW/ZF lineup.

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/this-is-the-manual-toyota-supra-official-release.13228/post-195269

Wikipedia info on ZF manual trans, for reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_S6-53_transmission

If I understand the naming convention for the Supra's manual trans, its "rated (input) torque" sounds like 500 N*m which is "coincidentally" 369 ft*lb torque.... The rated engine torque for the Supra if anyone actually believes the numbers. I also believe the auto 8HP 51 is rated for the same input torque. And those have been shown to put up with quite a bit of abuse.

Its anyone's guess besides the powertrain engineers what the rated torque means (like a steady state torque instead of a shock load torque which is intermittent, short duration, and probably much higher), and what kind of margins of safety they design the transmission to.

I also found this interesting, this website says a bunch of internal parts on the supra's MT are named with GS6-53 designation which I believe are used in the G series M BMWs.

https://www.automaticchoice.com/en/gs6l50tz-manual-transmission-catalogue

Anyway I thought it is interesting that the transmission is probably not that different internally than other BMW boxes, so I would guess its durability is probably similar to the ones in the late model M cars.

I'm interested to see where you take the car, keep us posted.

when tuning my MT we encountered a safety in the ecu that prevents the car from exceeding 571tq unless it’s deactivated. At the time it was one of the first big turbo MT’s so it caught my tuner by surprise when the car hit a wall on the dyno.
Easy to deactive but perhaps indicative of the clutch limitations and not the trans.

I’ve seen the trans take 800 wtq without issue from a launch.

 

[maniac]

On a related note, I have had better luck with less spinning in the first 3 gears with a better, wider, stickier than stock tire in the rear (Michelin PS4S, 305mm width)

was this on the stock rim?

 

[Jmanlevan]

was this on the stock rim?

No that 305 is on my 19x11 Variant wheels.

 

[shaloot]

Pure and ATS trans upgrades are auto only, not intended for manual.

For reference though to answer the question, they replace the failure prone E and C clutch hubs, added friction discs on C and E to hold torque, and machined pistons to accommodate clearance.

thanks, I’m aware those are for auto / ZF8 only, just trying to get an understanding of any equivalent components on the manual trans that would need to be upgraded down the line.
I appreciate your detailed reply. As a layman on auto transmissions, I don’t know what the clutch hubs do but other than that it seems they mostly just improve the friction / holding capability. As would a stronger clutch in a manual.

 

[Kennith82]

thanks, I’m aware those are for auto / ZF8 only, just trying to get an understanding of any equivalent components on the manual trans that would need to be upgraded down the line.
I appreciate your detailed reply. As a layman on auto transmissions, I don’t know what the clutch hubs do but other than that it seems they mostly just improve the friction / holding capability. As would a stronger clutch in a manual.

Yeah, the general use is that they hold more clutches but also in high torque application, the cast aluminum E hubs tend to break when launched. I think in track applications it’s fine.

E clutch hub on the autos fail when launched with high torque. There’s a few references of it happening on the forum. I haven’t heard of the C hub breaking though besides one guy on the dodge forums. ATS documented a D drum failure as well on 1000+ torque.

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