A91 & Recent 2021 Impossible to Tune / ECU manufactured after 2020/6 is locked? [WARNING: NO POLITICS]

PalmettoPrecision

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I just can’t wait to have a bunch ‘21 Supras scooting around with 450hp+ 93+DP tunes. A bunch of fast v8s are going to get their feelings hurt by “stock” cars ?

These cars are going to do very well on pump tunes, comparatively.
 

BMW_YOTA

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Damn this is a shame they’re being so selfish. They’re like 5 mins from my house and I have a locked ‘21.
See if they can unlock yours and settle the debate of it being real or fake once and for all.
 

Lendo

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Are people still questioning the validity of the video?
 

Tsar

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All the BS calling is BS.


Selfish? They're running a business.
If they were running a business they would be licensing out their "trade secret" and getting royalties from every single unlock out there. Instead, they are just sitting on a pretend unlock and waiting for some one else to unlock so then they can use their big bad trade secret to also unlock some ECUs and lose their advantage in the market.

Businesses that usually come into an advantage like this rush to market to corner it and make as much money as possible before competitors swoop in and if someone steal their IP, they sue the piss out of them.
 

BMW_YOTA

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If they were running a business they would be licensing out their "trade secret" and getting royalties from every single unlock out there. Instead, they are just sitting on a pretend unlock and waiting for some one else to unlock so then they can use their big bad trade secret to also unlock some ECUs and lose their advantage in the market.

Businesses that usually come into an advantage like this rush to market to corner it and make as much money as possible before competitors swoop in and if someone steal their IP, they sue the piss out of them.
Someone buy this man a beer!!!
 

zrk

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If they were running a business they would be licensing out their "trade secret" and getting royalties from every single unlock out there. Instead, they are just sitting on a pretend unlock and waiting for some one else to unlock so then they can use their big bad trade secret to also unlock some ECUs and lose their advantage in the market.

Businesses that usually come into an advantage like this rush to market to corner it and make as much money as possible before competitors swoop in and if someone steal their IP, they sue the piss out of them.
I see what you're saying, but.. sort of. You can't exactly patent something like this. Cracking or Unlocking (see jailbreaking) has been dismissed in court as patentable. If you "licensed" the technology you'd basically have to license on faith that whoever you license to - or whoever receives the IP wouldn't redistribute. I'm a software engineer - and have been for 20 years (I also have my name on a couple of patents), and would definitely wait to make sure all my i's are dotted and t's crossed before releasing something like this.

I'm not saying they 100% have a working crack, I'm saying this isn't bad business, this is just smart (if the crack is real). If it's not - I literally have no idea what the angle is.
 

Tsar

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I see what you're saying, but.. sort of. You can't exactly patent something like this. Cracking or Unlocking (see jailbreaking) has been dismissed in court as patentable. If you "licensed" the technology you'd basically have to license on faith that whoever you license to - or whoever receives the IP wouldn't redistribute. I'm a software engineer - and have been for 20 years (I also have my name on a couple of patents), and would definitely wait to make sure all my i's are dotted and t's crossed before releasing something like this.

I'm not saying they 100% have a working crack, I'm saying this isn't bad business, this is just smart (if the crack is real). If it's not - I literally have no idea what the angle is.
I never said patent. I used trade secret for a reason. One, as you mentioned potential patentability issues and it takes a long time to actually get a utility patent (I seriously doubt they are doing that). Two, you don't ever license anything on "faith" - you create a contract, retain full ownership of the product, charge royalties for use or flat fee if you want and go from there. This all is obviously documented. Licensing is quick and avoids hoop jumping (see obtaining a patent). If license is breached, you have have full suite of remedies and damages to go after. No one licenses anything on faith. If someone "redistributes" your trade secret after licensee signs the license/contract and the respective NDA.. well they are not very bright and there will be plenty of law firms to choose from to make them poor - especially if this is actually a valuable trade secret. (Granted nothing in this world is ever 100%). Also, I think real money in this would be to license their trade secret, if there is one, to bigger companies and just sit back and collect bags of money - not to do actual customer unlocks.


I really have no horse in this race, I have a 2020 supra and would be happy to wrong but I just don't believe them after the statement they issued. Time will prove me wrong or right. :dunno:
 

zrk

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I never said patent. I used trade secret for a reason. One, as you mentioned potential patentability issues and it takes a long time to actually get a utility patent (I seriously doubt they are doing that). Two, you don't ever license anything on "faith" - you create a contract, retain full ownership of the product, charge royalties for use or flat fee if you want and go from there. This all is obviously documented. Licensing is quick and avoids hoop jumping (see obtaining a patent). If license is breached, you have have full suite of remedies and damages to go after. No one licenses anything on faith. If someone "redistributes" your trade secret after licensee signs the license/contract and the respective NDA.. well they are not very bright and there will be plenty of law firms to choose from to make them poor - especially if this is actually a valuable trade secret. (Granted nothing in this world is ever 100%). Also, I think real money in this would be to license their trade secret, if there is one, to bigger companies and just sit back and collect bags of money - not to do actual customer unlocks.


I really have no horse in this race, I have a 2020 supra and would be happy to wrong but I just don't believe them after the statement they issued. Time will prove me wrong or right. :dunno:
Oh, yeah. I know you didn't say patent, I said patent. It's -incredibly- hard to license without a patent (hence why my name is on a couple). It's easier if you have a provisional patent, but it's nearly impossible to license a non-physical (software is typically considered this in courts, depending on state, unfortunately) good without a patent. I'm saying, a broken license agreement w/o a patent is only enforceable as far as the license agreement goes. The worst-case for the licensee, in this case, would be that the license agreement is broken and the acquirer can no longer sell the licensed good (typically - again, depends on state).

If you do not have patent-pending/provisional patents in place, there is nothing proprietary about your good, and it can be done with as one pleases. I've been through this - several times, in billion-dollar companies (happy to provide credentials in DMs). Here's a little reading on it, but it, unfortunately, doesn't provide case law.
 

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If they were running a business they would be licensing out their "trade secret" and getting royalties from every single unlock out there. Instead, they are just sitting on a pretend unlock and waiting for some one else to unlock so then they can use their big bad trade secret to also unlock some ECUs and lose their advantage in the market.

Businesses that usually come into an advantage like this rush to market to corner it and make as much money as possible before competitors swoop in and if someone steal their IP, they sue the piss out of them.
Couldn't agree more

If they have cracked it why didn't they do their encryption etc first to stop guys reverse engineering it then come out & release it with back to back video's on a couple of platforms to show Guys they can actually do it & you can actually get your car tuned now for X amount of dollars

I have a tuned 2020 & love it so I have no horse in this race either
 

zrk

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why didn't they do their encryption etc first to stop guys reverse engineering
Potentially great question. I am curious about their actual motivations on this as well. I don't think that either confirms or denies that it's possible or that they did it. I guess internet points/reputation or something along those lines if it's real. If it's not real -- I don't understand why they'd even bother with any of it.
 

zrk

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Couldn't agree more
I can't really agree on this point, though. Licensing is really fucking hard. In my work I've dealt with licensing software I've written, my team has written, patenting things, and more. It's hundreds of hours of legal work, due diligence, finding proof of lack-of-prior-art, and other legal bullshit.

There's literally no reason to license something if you don't license correctly, because the agreement won't stand up in court, and if it does, there are no real legal repercussions if there is no patent. See MedImmune, Inc. v. Genetech, Inc.
 

Tsar

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I can't really agree on this point, though. Licensing is really fucking hard. In my work I've dealt with licensing software I've written, my team has written, patenting things, and more. It's hundreds of hours of legal work, due diligence, finding proof of lack-of-prior-art, and other legal bullshit.

There's literally no reason to license something if you don't license correctly, because the agreement won't stand up in court, and if it does, there are no real legal repercussions if there is no patent. See MedImmune, Inc. v. Genetech, Inc.
I can respond in more details later but there are plenty of potential civil and criminal penalties for trade secret misappropriation (all the way up to prison) . I’m not certain why you discount those automatically - maybe I missed something. Is it helpful if you have a patent to license something, sure. Can you license something without one, yea (KFC has no patents but you aren’t getting that recipe without some heavy duty paperwork - this is just an easy trade secret example). Is there legal work? Yes, that’s why my people exist lol (for “legal bullshit” - drafting licenses or going after infringement).
You seem to be solely focused on a patent which i don’t believe is at issue here (ie they are not getting one) and if they did get one, the info would obviously get disclosed which I would imagine would just lead to some guy named pavel remoting into your laptop and doing the unlock from Russia where they wouldn’t care about US patent anyways. I’m just saying there’s more to licensing than having a patent.

Okay I have to be out for now
 

Genesisxdoes

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If they were running a business they would be licensing out their "trade secret" and getting royalties from every single unlock out there. Instead, they are just sitting on a pretend unlock and waiting for some one else to unlock so then they can use their big bad trade secret to also unlock some ECUs and lose their advantage in the market.

Businesses that usually come into an advantage like this rush to market to corner it and make as much money as possible before competitors swoop in and if someone steal their IP, they sue the piss out of them.
This. I didn’t doubt that they did it but the more I think about it the more I’m on the fence. If I had an advantage like this I’d do everything to get it out and get that leg up. It’s also kinda funny that they’re so picky about people stealing and cracking their IP when they are in the business of reverse engineering and cracking other people’s IP’s lol.

I just think it’s a thing in demand and yeah make your money, but don’t hold it hostage when you could be helping the community and your own brand by having people know you were the innovators. But everyone runs their own business differently. I’d help the community.
 
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