2023 MT Supra vs 2023 AT Supra

[kaj]

unless you have driving skills like randy pobst, the auto vs manual on track is going to depend on driver skills.

on a straight where no skills are required, then auto will be faster 10/10 times.

Based on what? I guess all major racing sanction bodies are doing it wrong.

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[NocturnalEmber]

You're leaving out the part where, in the comments, they also mention that track conditions and weather had a lot to do with the manual transmissions time being so close.
When they posted the data log, the automatic was faster everywhere except for in braking zones in which both cars were dead even with a slight advantage to The MT being able to brake later. That was attributed to the tires having more grip in that certain situation.



I've never said anything about it being inferior. Slower lap times? Yes. Not inferior. I'm not even a fan of automatic transmissions, but I also Don't blindly follow my preferences.

**Edit: It was grassroots Motorsports that posted the data logs. I believe they compare the 2020 automatic to a 23 manual.

"I'm going to say the difference in braking was most likely tires or track conditions or a combination of both. There' nothing particularly off in the shape of the curves that shows I was driving markedly differently, so to me that entire trace just kind of points to there being more available grip when we tested the newer car. Since we tested the 2020 version, the FIRM has also added some exit curbing, meaning you can get a bit more mid corner and exit speed, so there's also every chance I was more conservative on my entries with the pre-extended configuration."

There's noting wrong with having a preference, and while you mention it "had a lot to do with the manual being so close" The article's description frames it as a fractional difference: " partly aided by favorable 40-degree morning temperatures." I wouldn't consider that saying it had a lot to do with it.

Granted, temperatures matter, but four seconds is a staggering amount of time, and even if you throw that four seconds out the window and assume the manual transmission car was four seconds slower, that would still be on par with the automatic transmission.

Further down it mentions "The tall gearing and the engine's wide powerband limited time-sapping upshifts to a mere five per lap. "

This is the key point I've been trying to echo here that I've mentioned before.

Outside of 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times, the advantage of the auto box wanes significantly. I'm not trying to say one car is better than the other, but just like the earlier discussion about which one people prefer (and it being entirely subjective to what one is looking for in the car), The entire advantage the auto provides, (faster shifting) is not going to be as much of an advantage when you aren't changing gears nearly as often. On the other side of things, though, if chasing 1/4 mile and 0-60 times are your thing the 8 speed will obviously have an advantage here.

 

[kaj]

There's noting wrong with having a preference, and while you mention it "had a lot to do with the manual being so close" The article's description frames it as a fractional difference: " partly aided by favorable 40-degree morning temperatures." I wouldn't consider that saying it had a lot to do with it.

Granted, temperatures matter, but four seconds is a staggering amount of time, and even if you throw that four seconds out the window and assume the manual transmission car was four seconds slower, that would still be on par with the automatic transmission.

Further down it mentions "The tall gearing and the engine's wide powerband limited time-sapping upshifts to a mere five per lap. "

This is the key point I've been trying to echo here that I've mentioned before.

Outside of 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times, the advantage of the auto box wanes significantly. I'm not trying to say one car is better than the other, but just like the earlier discussion about which one people prefer (and it being entirely subjective to what one is looking for in the car), The entire advantage the auto provides, (faster shifting) is not going to be as much of an advantage when you aren't changing gears nearly as often. On the other side of things, though, if chasing 1/4 mile and 0-60 times are your thing the 8 speed will obviously have an advantage here.

The number of extra gear changes don't matter when they're instantaneous and you lose no time.
Anyway, we'll just agree to disagree while I go faster than anyone with a MT. ?

 

[NocturnalEmber]

The number of extra gear changes don't matter when they're instantaneous and you lose no time.
Anyway, we'll just agree to disagree while I go faster than anyone with a MT. ?

You do realize you are basically now echoing what I'm saying by agreeing that you lose no time, right? My entire argument has been that the gear changes begin to become less of an advantage.

I have no idea why you are choosing this hill to die on, even in the metrics where the auto has a clear advantage it's a few tenths of a second.

 

[kaj]

You do realize you are basically now echoing what I'm saying by agreeing that you lose no time, right? My entire argument has been that the gear changes begin to become less of an advantage.

I have no idea why you are choosing this hill to die on, even in the metrics where the auto has a clear advantage it's a few tenths of a second.

If the MT car changes gears once, the AT is faster. Since we all change gears at least once, the AT is faster. The AT can go through 100 gears vs the MT single change and still be faster.

The MT is always slower around a race track. By just a few 10ths? Maybe. Still faster. Also adds up to a lot after multiple laps.
A few tenths could cost me a podium. Because slower.

 

[Denton]

Reasons for going to 23MT:

Minor reasons:
- Acceleration at slow speeds just felt wierd in the 20. I assume the Tq converter was just doing it's thing, but it it just felt like you moved too slow for the first 5-10kph. If you matted it it moved just fine tho.
- None sequential shifts.
- Every x off throttle downshifts in the 20 would cause the car to shift, burble, decelerate the car & then it felt like the Tq converter would unlock, car would no longer be decelerating for about 1 second, then the deceleration would hit again and it would burble again.
- I enjoy the ever so small mental stack increase.

Main reason:
- I let my emotions govern my purchases and it just feels fan-fuckin-tastic rowing gears again.

 

[NocturnalEmber]

If the MT car changes gears once, the AT is faster. Since we all change gears at least once, the AT is faster. The AT can go through 100 gears vs the MT single change and still be faster.

The MT is always slower around a race track. By just a few 10ths? Maybe. Still faster. Also adds up to a lot after multiple laps.
A few tenths could cost me a podium. Because slower.

I don't even know where to start here.

Knowing that any car under any sort of performance evaluation, be it a manual or an automatic transmission will have to change gears is a given, I don't know why you felt the need to mention that.

The manual is not "always slower around a race track", that's been proven already. I don't know how many times I have to say the same thing or how many different ways: The less gear changes that happen, the less of an advantage you are going to see with the automatic transmission; That's not trying to take a personal jab at anyone, it's just an objective conclusion that when you do less of what gives something an advantage of and what gives something else the same handicap, the situation begins to change.

Honestly it sounds like you are bitter about the fact that you bought the car and then Toyota put out a manual transmission option after the fact. Maybe that's not the case, but your general attitude towards refusing to be open to even entertaining the fact that an automatic box will have a diminishing advantage in conditions speakes volumes to that.

 

[FLtrackdays]

Damn, I’m late to the party ?

I’m not bitter. I appreciate all y’all’s opinions. We’re all driving for fun. I happen to agree with @kaj that these newer autos are insanely fast and smooth on track. They finely broke me down. I bashed every auto I could think of for ages. This is my 1st auto track vehicle. And I wouldn’t change a thing! But that’s me and it’s a personal preference.

For in town, in a lower horsepower car, the manuals are nice. On a track with higher HP, not so much. But again that’s just me. I also like to think extremes. Imagine a Bugatti, Ferrari or McLaren manual. Snapping off a shift with that much power in a corner would not be “fun”. No matter how good you can heel and toe. Imagine coming down the corkscrew at Laguna Seca and down shifting, lol. Honestly, until owning this bad boy, I wouldn’t have considered it. Now it can be done easily w/out upsetting the car, anywhere on track.

Again, for the majority of people - who cares. The manual would be fantastic to own and drive on a daily basis. I’m pretty sure kaj has other cars. I do as well. So I can still have my manual ? experience. But on track, I can be offline, in a turn and up or downshift with ease. I’m still blown away with this new experience if you can’t tell ?. I totally get why people are seriously racing these automatic Supras against Porsche & others and winning! Toyota nailed this relationship with BMW and her ZF trans. She’s fantastic ?

 

[kaj]

I don't even know where to start here.

Knowing that any car under any sort of performance evaluation, be it a manual or an automatic transmission will have to change gears is a given, I don't know why you felt the need to mention that.

The manual is not "always slower around a race track", that's been proven already. I don't know how many times I have to say the same thing or how many different ways: The less gear changes that happen, the less of an advantage you are going to see with the automatic transmission; That's not trying to take a personal jab at anyone, it's just an objective conclusion that when you do less of what gives something an advantage of and what gives something else the same handicap, the situation begins to change.

Honestly it sounds like you are bitter about the fact that you bought the car and then Toyota put out a manual transmission option after the fact. Maybe that's not the case, but your general attitude towards refusing to be open to even entertaining the fact that an automatic box will have a diminishing advantage in conditions speakes volumes to that.

Agreed we both said that. But we *do* change gears so there *is always* going to be an advantage for the AT, which you also just said, so I don't know what we're arguing either. We're both saying the same thing. ?
I wouldn't want a Supra in a MT because it would be a lesser track car (which is the only reason I bought it and all it's used for) so no. Not bitter, but I understand that's the go-to argument. When choosing a car with a manual, a Supra is not on my radar.
Nobody wants to believe an AT Supra owner could possibly appreciate a manual transmission. I cover those bases just fine and can hop into a car with a manual transmission anytime I want. ??

 

[AJRMKV]

Let’s just keep it simple when it comes to track/circuit racing.

Pick the toy you like best and practice with it often. You’ll be faster than some autos/manuals and some will be faster than you.

No one will pay you to race so success is measured in smiles per gallon.

 

[NocturnalEmber]

Agreed we both said that. But we *do* change gears so there *is always* going to be an advantage for the AT, which you also just said, so I don't know what we're arguing either. We're both saying the same thing. ?
I wouldn't want a Supra in a MT because it would be a lesser track car (which is the only reason I bought it and all it's used for) so no. Not bitter, but I understand that's the go-to argument. When choosing a car with a manual, a Supra is not on my radar.
Nobody wants to believe an AT Supra owner could possibly appreciate a manual transmission. I cover those bases just fine and can hop into a car with a manual transmission anytime I want. ??

Lesser is entirely subjective.

I don't think we are necessarily saying the same thing. I don't understand why its so difficult to understand that the car you claim is a "lesser" track car begins to have more of an advantage on a track and the 8 speed that you are essentially worshipping has less of an advantage because its doing less of what you are praising it for.

You can't logically dispute the fact that the less shifting that is done, the less of an advantage it has, but you really are trying hard to.

Four seconds is also a staggering amount of time. LIke I said previously, even if you were to apply a four second penalty to the manual transmission car used in that scenario you would end up with two cars with the exact same time. Even with that gigantic hypothetical handicap, the cars would be evenly timed at that point.

This isn't up for debate, unless you are changing the parameters of your argument. Its more of the principal of the thing at this point; It's a great car regardless, but I'm not going to sit here and treat my spec of the car as a perfect representation with no flaws, because thats not the case, and one with an auto shouldn't do that, either.

 

[BMWAF]

I don't think we are necessarily saying the same thing. I don't understand why its so difficult to understand that the car you claim is a "lesser" track car begins to have more of an advantage on a track and the 8 speed that you are essentially worshipping has less of an advantage because its doing less of what you are praising it for.

I personally think the automatic is a waste of space but I can't negate its pretty much insurmountable speed advantage.

Assuming the computer shift is perfect - which it isn't - but for the purpose of the argument, lets assume it is. By definition, this computer controlled gear change is always going to be quicker than a human changing gears. And yes, with a track that requires less gear shifts that computer shift speed advantage will be reduced.. but it will still be there.

With the addition of the reduced cognitive load of driving an automatic, an overall speed advantage for the automatic transmission just makes sense.. but I think we are splitting hairs at this point and really reaching to find reasons to champion the arguably least desirable transmission - Have you ever heard of anyone bemoaning the lack of an automatic transmission: Me neither.

In any case, the manual will inevitably be slower but I suspect this will only stir skilled manual drivers to improve and bridge that gap.

Besides, everyone loves an underdog.

 

[kaj]

In any case, the manual will inevitably be slower but I suspect this will only stir skilled manual drivers to improve and bridge that gap.

Besides, everyone loves an underdog.

Absolutely. I think for most of us, that's 100% the reason we prefer manual transmissions. I want to see how close I can get to that GT car with the fancy paddle shifter.

 

[noogie]

Let’s just keep it simple when it comes to track/circuit racing.

Pick the toy you like best and practice with it often. You’ll be faster than some autos/manuals and some will be faster than you.

No one will pay you to race so success is measured in smiles per gallon.

but keyboard racing is the best way to be faster on track.

 

[NocturnalEmber]

I personally think the automatic is a waste of space but I can't negate its pretty much insurmountable speed advantage.

Assuming the computer shift is perfect - which it isn't - but for the purpose of the argument, lets assume it is. By definition, this computer controlled gear change is always going to be quicker than a human changing gears. And yes, with a track that requires less gear shifts that computer shift speed advantage will be reduced.. but it will still be there.

With the addition of the reduced cognitive load of driving an automatic, an overall speed advantage for the automatic transmission just makes sense.. but I think we are splitting hairs at this point and really reaching to find reasons to champion the arguably least desirable transmission - Have you ever heard of anyone bemoaning the lack of an automatic transmission: Me neither.

In any case, the manual will inevitably be slower but I suspect this will only stir skilled manual drivers to improve and bridge that gap.

Besides, everyone loves an underdog.

Completely agree. I'm not trying to split hairs, my whole argument was that when you do less of one thing that makes it advantageous, you are also doing less of what is disadvantageous to the manual transmission.

Pick the one you want, and drive what makes you happy. For me, its changing my own gears regardless, lol.

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