A90 Supra life cycle: Incremental updates? New variants coming? What's next?

[jtsang25]

Respectfully, I disagree.

Now admittedly I haven't been paying much attention but doesn't the GR Yaris and the GRMN Yaris have the exact same engine; putting out the exact same power figures? Unless there is some non-compete agreement between BMW and Toyota (which there very well may be), I think it is a far more logical proposition that we will see a targa before we see a full engine swap!

Here's my reasoning:

1. A targa will sell in greater numbers. This car, like every other car, is about making money. The small number of people who want more power just aren't worth the effort. Sorry. There's far more regular regular people interested in a targa than there are track focused rich kids. And yes, that's why the automatic came out first - more people were likely to buy it because driving a manual is a skill not all people have. Deal with it.

2. If the Yaris is anything to go by, GRMN is about exclusivity and halo factor and not actually putting additional power into the hands of the average buyer. Look at the bullshit Morizo edition. I know the fanboys will cry but Toyota doesn't care about you. Just like the bullshit A90/A91 standard in the US. It's about money and pretend exclusivity, not actual increased performance. And beyond this, the Yaris proves the unwritten rule that Japanese manufcaturers always reserve something special for Japan only.

3. A targa has actually been built.. b y Toyota. Apart from baseless rumors, there is zero hard evidence Toyota has entertained using an S58, let alone actually engine swapped the Supra.

4. Not really a valid point, but I'm pretty sure GRMN is pronounced GERMAN which is kind funny considering the Supra's underpinnings.

Of course, I could be wrong.. and often am.. and I know there are some good counter arguments, but I think at the very least, my reasoning here is pretty sound.

Toyota didn't make the targa build them self. It was a commissioned build to a shop in the US for SEMA.

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[FuzzyRev]

Toyota didn't make the targa build them self. It was a commissioned build to a shop in the US for SEMA.

Yes, but no.

Toyota directly commissioned its creation and partnered with KC's Paint Shop in Fort Worth, not far from their North American headquarters in Plano. KC's cut the roof off, shipped the car back to Plano, and then Toyota fabricated the two roof panels themselves in Ann Arbor at their NA R&D headquarters (amazing place). Meanwhile, a small team in Plano disassembled & modified the body structure for extra strength, received the 3D-printed roof panels, then fabricated a clamp & latch attachment setup. After all was done, it went back to KC's for the finishing bodywork and paint.

TL;DR - Toyota essentially DID build it themselves.

 

[BMWAF]

BMW mind set from what I see is the chassis on the mkv should accommodate all engines in the b58-s58 engine family. just like other new BMW cars. Toyota swapped engines in 2021 like it was nothing. mt transmission option in 2023. For example, BMW x3 and x5 a few other models use these b58 engines based on trim and can accommodate s58 painlessly. the car is due for a power bump option. Imo S58 is the elephant in the room.

Which engines did they swap? A B58.. with another B58? I am not aware of any times a car manufacturer has completely replaced an engine as part of a refresh. And Toyota has form of using the same engine when up-badging. Is there a reason why the GRMN Yaris, Morizo Corolla and A90/A91 aren't reasonable yardsticks to base the GRMN Supra predictions?

 

[StevesMK5]

Also they gave us a base model b48 2.0 This supra is a unique beast not exactly following Toyotas way of keeping things the same. People were shocked when they swapped engines from 2 port to 6port after just 1 year of production. They have been throwing engines at us like it’s nothing. This is why S58 is not off the table. They also are selling incredibly well find a dealer any dealer you will have to get on a list wait for a allocation. Or buy used

 

[BMWAF]

Also they gave us a base model b48 2.0 This supra is a unique beast not exactly following Toyotas way of keeping things the same. People were shocked when they swapped engines from 2 port to 6port after just 1 year of production. They have been throwing engines at us like it’s nothing. This is why S58 is not off the table. They also are selling incredibly well find a dealer any dealer you will have to get on a list wait for a allocation. Or buy used

I don't think that follows. Firstly, the 2 port and 6 port are the same engine, just an evolution thereof.. which is exactly what I am suggesting the MY24 and/or the GRMN might be. And secondly, the 2.0 Supra was always intended to house the B48 - it hasn't changed over its lifetime and other than possibly the same evolutionary changes aforementioned, I'd wager it won't.

I just don't follow the logic mate.

Also, this argument gains weight when you look at the 2.0 Supra and 3.0 Supra as completely different cars; competing in separate segments.. A bit like a cooking model Carolla vs the GR variant. They're the same but they're really not.

 

[Marsone]

Which engines did they swap? A B58.. with another B58? I am not aware of any times a car manufacturer has completely replaced an engine as part of a refresh. And Toyota has form of using the same engine when up-badging. Is there a reason why the GRMN Yaris, Morizo Corolla and A90/A91 aren't reasonable yardsticks to base the GRMN Supra predictions?

To be fair, the s2000 got a completely different engine in its mid life refresh.

 

[KahnBB6]

I don't need to "deal" with anything, lol. The car I was looking for is already out now (Supra 3.0 Premium 6-speed manual transmission hardtop) so I'm good! All other options from this point on are additional wins IMO!

Maybe this will be the case with a targa version as well? I've been in favor of it being added to the range even though I'd personally never want one. But that doesn't mean there isn't demand for it and it also doesn't mean Toyota should pass up the opportunity to offer it. They should!

As for the GRMN edition... really hard to say at this point unless we get some new hard info.

The GR Yaris has the 1.6L 272ps engine (268hp I think) while the GR Corolla has the 300hp variant of the same 1.6L engine.

 

[BMWAF]

To be fair, the s2000 got a completely different engine in its mid life refresh.

I didn't know that and I stand corrected. I honestly have no idea.. just trying to connect dots in a sequence that makes the most sense.

 

[robotvoice]

To be fair, the s2000 got a completely different engine in its mid life refresh.

"Completely different" is a bit of a stretch. The F22 is still based on the F20 with some minor changes (larger displacement, lower redline, more torque, etc). It's not like they took out the F20 and put in a V6.

 

[GRMan]

Which engines did they swap? A B58.. with another B58? I am not aware of any times a car manufacturer has completely replaced an engine as part of a refresh. And Toyota has form of using the same engine when up-badging. Is there a reason why the GRMN Yaris, Morizo Corolla and A90/A91 aren't reasonable yardsticks to base the GRMN Supra predictions?

Engine replacement at the time of a refresh is not too uncommon

The nearest example would be from…(cough cough) BMW when they refreshed the F87 M2 with the M2C (N55 to S55)

BMW also did an engine swap on the E36 M3 (both Euro & uS models), increasing displacement from 3.0 to 3.2

Recently Porsche also did that to

1. Whole 991.2 range (base, CS, CS4, GTS, GT3, GT3 RS)

2. whole 718 range (base, S, GTS, Spyder, GT4} though one can argue that the 718 is a major refresh from the 981

i would love to see the S58 on a regular GR Supra 6MT but know that chances are slimmer than slim. At least give the base Supra an updated B58 with 420-430hp given the new M2 is not priced too much above the Supra.

On the GRMN, what engine will be on the car depends on the price point. I would love to see a B58 + 6MT version with a realistic price point and availability.

A S58 GRMN would be awesome but it will command a Nismo GTR level of pricing

 

[Marsone]

"Completely different" is a bit of a stretch. The F22 is still based on the F20 with some minor changes (larger displacement, lower redline, more torque, etc). It's not like they took out the F20 and put in a V6.

Idk man. As someone who’s owned one and driven both, the AP2 had an upgraded valve train, different pistons, different compression ratio, different power curve, etc. Not to mention the 10% increase to displacement. It was nearly an entire (engine) redesign, packaged as a refresh. That many revisions usually would not occur mid-cycle, and I think should constitute as more than “minor”. The engines are not exactly interchangeable, however I can see the logic that you’re following, since they aren’t wildly different engines. But if we got a 3.3L B58, wouldn’t you consider that a different engine?

 

[MoTeC_R]

Well if last years announce schedule happens we’re less than 2 months from the MY2024 announcement and worst case we’re 3 months out. Get ready to put your Targa orders in!

 

[Bryster]

Question: should the S58 Supra have a manual?

 

[MoTeC_R]

Question: should the S58 Supra have a manual?

If you’re referring to the GRMN they are making in Japan for 100 units only they likely will be manual only and that alone makes them extremely unlikely for any of us to get one.

 

[Supraboi7]

Yes, but no.

Toyota directly commissioned its creation and partnered with KC's Paint Shop in Fort Worth, not far from their North American headquarters in Plano. KC's cut the roof off, shipped the car back to Plano, and then Toyota fabricated the two roof panels themselves in Ann Arbor at their NA R&D headquarters (amazing place). Meanwhile, a small team in Plano disassembled & modified the body structure for extra strength, received the 3D-printed roof panels, then fabricated a clamp & latch attachment setup. After all was done, it went back to KC's for the finishing bodywork and paint.

TL;DR - Toyota essentially DID build it themselves.

I wonder how much it would cost for someone to take their car there to have that done

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