Are these tires cooked or could I juice out another session?

[razorlab]

The M2 tire rack test is the one I was eluding to that stated RT660's were faster than A052s. We all know that is absolute bs.

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[Subydude]

The M2 tire rack test is the one I was eluding to that stated RT660's were faster than A052s. We all know that is absolute bs.

The updated 660+ has shown to be faster than the old one, but is expected (and has somewhat shown that so far also) to heat cycle out the same as before since it was only a construction update and not a compound update.

Looking at the data from that day it's easy to see why the RT660+ was faster for a single lap, but slower by average lap. Conditions in the 90's with humidity in the 80% range on a 3,800 lbs strut car likely put the A052 out of it's window before the first flying lap was even done. The fact they said it gave consistent times on laps 2-4 back that thought process up. I have definitely overheated the Yok before the first lap was done at NCM.

This is what I'm talking about where tire testing from good sources gives good data that can be extrapolated from. That test tells you which tire does well both on a flyer and over time on a heavy car. For us, the Supra being 400+ lbs lighter means we'd get a full hot lap on the A052 and it would be faster than the 660+. But the fall off would also be greater through lap 2, 3, 4. The 660+ itself becomes a better tire, but without the compound change is still going to run out of life before it runs out of tread.

It's kind of defunct anyway with the RZ coming out.

200 tw Tires in order for us are really:
Yok A052 (if ambient is below 70ish)
71RS (if ambient is above 70ish)
CRS (if you like the A052 feedback and it's toasty outside)

If you don't care about ultimate track speed and just want to turn laps:
RT660+
P1 (assuming it's not raining or below about 85ish ambient)
Hankook RS4
etc

If you're a fucking moron:
Anything currently from Toyo
Anything currently from Maxxis
Anything seen on an instagram build

CN: Tire tests with actual data are worthwhile. Tires run by fast people that win at big events don't always line up, but often do. And if they post real data you can often find the strings tying it all together.

 

[razorlab]

RT660 was faster because it has stiffer sidewalls and the M2 was 100% stock without enough negative camber for a land yacht that it is... If you look at the data, all the tires with stiff sidewalls did well. Hence why the trash Vitour did "okay". which goes to my other point that tires are very car, driver, setup, track, temp, etc dependent. The issue is that a good amount of people will just look at that M2 test and parrot that RT660's are faster than the A052.

This is where you and I disagree. I still hold my ground that tire tests are BS and real world driving when it matters (competition or whatever personal reasons that matters to the person running the tires) is what is reality.

To be fair, I don't work for magazines or YT channels that do tire tests. Nor would I have any interest in it.

When it comes down to it, I will 100% put more weight on a person in a Supra and their experiences with a tire than some rando magazine throwing tires on hairdressers car with zero power and zero weight, at a track slightly larger than a parking lot.

 

[Subydude]

RT660 was faster because it has stiffer sidewalls and the M2 was 100% stock without enough negative camber for a land yacht that it is... If you look at the data, all the tires with stiff sidewalls did well. Hence why the trash Vitour did "okay". which goes to my other point that tires are very car, driver, setup, track, temp, etc dependent. The issue is that a good amount of people will just look at that M2 test and parrot that RT660's are faster than the A052.

This is where you and I disagree. I still hold my ground that tire tests are BS and real world driving when it matters (competition or whatever personal reasons that matters to the person running the tires) is what is reality.

To be fair, I don't work for magazines or YT channels that do tire tests. Nor would I have any interest in it.

When it comes down to it, I will 100% put more weight on a person in a Supra and their experiences with a tire than some rando magazine throwing tires on hairdressers car with zero power and zero weight, at a track slightly larger than a parking lot.

Obviously the results of a given day are what matters that day, along with the personal reasons. I'd much rather see someone drive on linglongs or tigerpaws than not drive at all. However, there's far more info out there along with far more that matters than the opinions of a few drivers on a niche forum. This is like people idolizing Jackie Ding and parroting that setup. That setup is what works for him on that car, that day, at that track. Following his recipe can get you in the ballpark in some ways, but the final tuning happens from there pending all the variables we've discussed and then some.

I'd much rather see data (whether or not it's from a magazine) from people who regularly race in SCCA/NASA/GL/OLOA/endurance series/etc on a well know car platform than get personal anecdotes from a forum that aren't backed up by data. But even better is taking all the data sets together and forming an opinion that I get to test by going to more track events. Preferably a theory that works and is faster as a cherry on top.

But, to put it back to the original question, the RT660 heat cycles out before other tires do. The tires in this thread are cycled out, and while they can be used, I would not if you're chasing lap times. Yes, any 200tw can cycle out before the tread is gone, and it's definable in the data. Not all cycle out, and it is car specific. There are lots of good details in various sources showing that heat cycle life, along with personal experience, doesn't always line up. I've had multiple sets of tires good to the cords in 71RS and A052. YMMV, but the general consensus in the motorsports world I live in has the 71RS/A052/CRS rarely cycling out before simply wearing out.

Making fun of another car type doesn't do your credibility much good though, or saying a 1.8 mile 11 turn track is much larger than a parking lot. The only people we can all agree on to make fun of at track days are dodge charger/challenger owners.

 

[razorlab]

The general consensus in the motorsports world I live in has the 71RS/A052/CRS rarely cycling out before simply wearing out.

I'm sorry, this is simply not true. Every single driver in the supra track discord would say the same. Every single TA record setting supra driver would say the same. If what you state was true, there would be no reason for people trying to set TA track records to throw stickers on every time. It would save everyone a ton of money too. The thing is, it's not true.

If 71RS/A052/CRS are fast to the cords for somebody, they aren't driving them fast enough.

If someone runs a set of CRS and they don't try to kill the driver at some point from their heat cycled out candy shell, they aren't driving them hard/fast enough.

RE71RS just get slower, but don't turn into widow makers.

Speaking confidently from my own experiences as well, I've been though multiple sets of 71RS and CRS, and am at the pointy end of lap times at local tracks.

 

[Subydude]

I'm sorry, this is simply not true. Every single driver in the supra track discord would say the same. Every single TA record setting supra driver would say the same. If what you state was true, there would be no reason for people trying to set TA track records to throw stickers on every time. It would save everyone a ton of money too. The thing is, it's not true.

If 71RS/A052/CRS are fast to the cords for somebody, they aren't driving them fast enough.

If someone runs a set of CRS and they don't try to kill the driver at some point from their heat cycled out candy shell, they aren't driving them hard/fast enough.

RE71RS just get slower, but don't turn into widow makers.

Speaking confidently from my own experiences as well, I've been though multiple sets of 71RS and CRS, and am at the pointy end of lap times at local tracks.

You're going about the logic the wrong way in the section I bolded. The reason they're fast to the cords is they're wearing out the tire before it can heat cycle out. One of these tires heat cycling out (generally) means you're not driving them either hard enough, or long enough in a given heat cycle. Putting a bunch of short but extreme heat cycles on them like a true TA car will generally run them through the usual 8-10 cycles a tire gets before using all the tread. A funded, or running for actual contingency/money/wins car that lives on the ragged edge for 1 out lap, 1 flier, and 1 in lap will be better served with fresh tires before a weekend since they'll be putting 8-10 cycles on over 2-3 days.

The average track day, or grassroots TA driver that stays out for the whole 20 minute session is more likely to actually wear out the tire before it cycles out because they're doing 7-10 laps in a session. Even at the events where I'm running TA I'll treat it like a 20 minute session after the first 1-3 laps when the tires start heat soaking. No reason to waste the heat cycle by coming in and trying to cool off when I'm a privateer and it's a plastic trophy on the line.

Regarding the CRS, I haven't run a set of those to the cords. I didn't like the V1 and never tried the V2 so I've pretty much stuck with the 71R/71RS/A052 for track since then.

I'm glad you're confident in your own opinion/experience. I am also.

The reason I stated what I did is almost none of us here are running TA at the tip of the spear like you reference. Also like you reference, we should be talking about what matters for a given situation. This situation is a bunch of people who are paying to go drive on a track in their street Supra's and aren't racing for money. In that scenario we're going to generally want to use the time well. For some of us that means burning through more rubber than others, whether it's due to track surface, temp, or driving style doesn't matter.

I think we can both agree on one thing. We've mucked this thread up enough and can move on for now.

 

[jchadwell]

Okay. Lot's of record setting TA guys, myself and others disagree with all that as well so... *shrug* I'm not going to argue with you on things I have personally experienced and be gaslit about it. No interest in that.

Heat cycled out and still driveable are two different things. Well, unless it's a CRS that become liabilities when heat cycled out.

Tire tests overall are bs.

I’ve personally run two sets of RE71s. My autocross times drop off from consistent top three pax to top 10-15 after about 8-10 events. That’s roughly 60-80 runs as well as an hour and a half drive to/from the event. Still have 1-2 mm tread left but they definitely slow down before wearing out. That’s my tire test.

 

[razorlab]

I’ve done TA and also stay out all session long most of the time doing 10-20 laps a session, but wtf do I know since “my logic is backwards”.

Whatever. You do you boo.

“The reason I stated what I did is almost none of us here are running TA at the tip of the spear”

Speak for yourself. That is a really bad assumption. Now everything you have stated makes more sense.

 

[razorlab]

Here are two examples of my "backwards logic" tires that have dropped at least 1-2 seconds in pace on a 1.5 mile track. Both far from the cords.

 

[Mdstx]

OP please take no offense. Based upon the information that you provided in your post, it appears that you are not seeking the fastest lap times but are working on your basic track skills. If you still have sufficient grip to be safe on track, then your tires can provide you more laps. If your tires lack sufficient grip to be safe, get new tires.

 

[razorlab]

Subyownermakingbadchoices is done now? Man, I wish you would post more wisdom. I mean, other than your username that has to do with subaru. Bro, you were not set up for success with that username. Just have to say.

Just FYI, any subaru owners that wear it as a badge of honor is like 100% dismissal in my book. If you learned from your mistake and actually moved on, then you wouldn't have made it your username.

To get ahead of it, I worked at a subaru shop tuning Mitsus for years. Subarus are trash ownership cars, but good job security. People that are actually critical with their life choices know exactly what I am talking about. People that don't, well... continue to choose usernames based on that dark history. 100% trash cars and people that continue to defend that trash ass shit... well. nope.

BYEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeeEEEeeeeEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeeEEEeeeeEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeeEEEeeeeEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeeEEEeeeeEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeeEEEeeeeEE

 

[TBK]

Subyownermakingbadchoices is done now? Man, I wish you would post more wisdom. I mean, other than your username that has to do with subaru. Bro, you were not set up for success with that username. Just have to say.

Just FYI, any subaru owners that wear it as a badge of honor is like 100% dismissal in my book. If you learned from your mistake and actually moved on, then you wouldn't have made it your username.

To get ahead of it, I worked at a subaru shop tuning Mitsus for years. Subarus are trash ownership cars, but good job security. People that are actually critical with their life choices know exactly what I am talking about. People that don't, well... continue to choose usernames based on that dark history. 100% trash cars and people that continue to defend that trash ass shit... well. nope.

BYEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeeEEEeeeeEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeeEEEeeeeEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeeEEEeeeeEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeeEEEeeeeEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeeEEEeeeeEE

Nah, you just need to know what you're doing and also manage your expectations. It's beyond the numbers sometimes. I don't see mysefl getting back in a Subaru anytime soon, but i'd be lying if i didn't think a lightly modded STI hatch wasn't a near perfect practical daily for me.

My all time GOAT and somewhat-but-lol-not-really attainable car is a Prodrive p25

Since i'll never be able to have one of those, i'll take one of these instead

 

[Subydude]

Subyownermakingbadchoices is done now? Man, I wish you would post more wisdom. I mean, other than your username that has to do with subaru. Bro, you were not set up for success with that username. Just have to say.

Just FYI, any subaru owners that wear it as a badge of honor is like 100% dismissal in my book. If you learned from your mistake and actually moved on, then you wouldn't have made it your username.

To get ahead of it, I worked at a subaru shop tuning Mitsus for years. Subarus are trash ownership cars, but good job security. People that are actually critical with their life choices know exactly what I am talking about. People that don't, well... continue to choose usernames based on that dark history. 100% trash cars and people that continue to defend that trash ass shit... well. nope.

BYEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeeEEEeeeeEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeeEEEeeeeEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeeEEEeeeeEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeeEEEeeeeEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeeEEEeeeeEE

I thought it was obvious with my "we've mucked this thread up enough" comment, but since you seem to want another response I'm happy to make it more clear. You simply aren't worth discussing it further with

 

[Rta95]

The M2 tire rack test is the one I was eluding to that stated RT660's were faster than A052s. We all know that is absolute bs.

Damn that's one of the things that convinced me to go with the RT660s

 

[Rta95]

I'm sorry, this is simply not true. Every single driver in the supra track discord would say the same. Every single TA record setting supra driver would say the same. If what you state was true, there would be no reason for people trying to set TA track records to throw stickers on every time. It would save everyone a ton of money too. The thing is, it's not true.

If 71RS/A052/CRS are fast to the cords for somebody, they aren't driving them fast enough.

If someone runs a set of CRS and they don't try to kill the driver at some point from their heat cycled out candy shell, they aren't driving them hard/fast enough.

RE71RS just get slower, but don't turn into widow makers.

Speaking confidently from my own experiences as well, I've been though multiple sets of 71RS and CRS, and am at the pointy end of lap times at local tracks.

How do I join the discord though? Seems like a good wealth knowledge. If it's open to the public that is.

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