Audio upgrade options

[MaherSupra]

I have high end equipment in my house. I can hear the same details in the Supra as long as I’m not moving. That points more to resonance at volume, speaker breakup at volume, lack of insulation against road noise and resonance, and lack of high frequency absorption materials in the car. All of these can be addressed fairly well without ripping the entire system out and/or losing integration.

In researching what I wanted to do, I came across where an actual speaker designer of some fairly well acclaimed speakers has this system in his BMW. The only things he did was add a 2nd order low pass and third order high pass to the front L&R speakers, add proper dampening/baffling material, and I believe he disabled the center and rears as well. The factory speakers once the above was done measured well.

If an objective and respected audio design engineer says these can measure (not just sound) good with proper work, I’m inclined to believe him. Hell, some of the better shops I went to said to leave the speakers alone unless I wanted to pay for marginal gains. I know what I don’t know, so I lean on those who have no skin in the game who do know.

I don’t want 110-120db continuous, so the strategies he took will be what I take for the rest of my build. If it doesn’t work, I would have needed to do those things either way, so no loss was incurred.

Edit: reversed high and low pass

Haha I love how you say as long as I’m not moving!!! Gut it out and sound deadening it with Roadkill or any other good quality sound deadening it will significantly reduce road noises. I spend more time in my car by choice because I love driving! It’s a choice so it better sound and ride beautifully. From all the cars I owned I don’t mind spending more money on it it’s a great car.

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[tadda]

In researching what I wanted to do, I came across where an actual speaker designer of some fairly well acclaimed speakers has this system in his BMW. The only things he did was add a 2nd order low pass and third order high pass to the front L&R speakers, add proper dampening/baffling material, and I believe he disabled the center and rears as well. The factory speakers once the above was done measured well.

If an objective and respected audio design engineer says these can measure (not just sound) good with proper work, I’m inclined to believe him. Hell, some of the better shops I went to said to leave the speakers alone unless I wanted to pay for marginal gains. I know what I don’t know, so I lean on those who have no skin in the game who do know.

Interesting...I share his and your sentiments...

Do you recall the frequencies he selected for the low and high pass filters ?

 

[JasonO]

Do you recall the frequencies he selected for the low and high pass filters?

Tadda, see this post.
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1448277&page=2
Math checks to roughly 3500 Hz.

That’s incredible! Most of you guys justifying Toyota shitty sound system choices and price cutting. Anyway I was driving this afternoon and I loved my true HiFi setup with help from Tidal Master sounds playlist. By the way, it’s the best sound quality you can have! Its a night and a day from anything else especially Sirius XM.

It is the same system as in HK package BMWs. The only difference is since this is a sports car, they skimped on the NVH. I’m adding NVH. Can better systems be bought? Yes. Can the existing system be improved cheaply enough to make the difference marginal? It appears likely.

Go back and read this whole thread. I’ve been a huge critic of this system. I have just taken a different approach than you have, and in the process, come to some different conclusions.

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html?m=1

Haha I love how you say as long as I’m not moving!!! Gut it out and sound deadening it with Roadkill or any other good quality sound deadening it will significantly reduce road noises. I spend more time in my car by choice because I love driving! It’s a choice so it better sound and ride beautifully. From all the cars I owned I don’t mind spending more money on it it’s a great car.

I’m happy you can read, I’m sad that you can’t comprehend. You literally had CLD and possibly some other stuff added as part of your install yet you fail to connect the dots.

 

[tadda]

Tadda, see this post.
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1448277&page=2
Math checks to roughly 3500 Hz.

Thanks Jason

 

[JasonO]

Thanks Jason

Take a look at this thread on the F30.
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1329316

It isn’t apples to apples, but a lot of what is going on processing wise with that HK system applies to the Supra from a philosophy standpoint. Given that you seem to be the most gung-ho at staying closer to stock, I figured it would help you.

- Subsonic filter on sub-woofer output
- Low pass on subwoofers around 100Hz but due to the boosted HK house curve, it is likely outputting meaningful mid bass at 200Hz
- the 4” are high passed at somewhere around 150Hz as best I can tell from electrical spectrum.
- DSP makes this have some guesswork
- the tweeters have a 6db high pass at 4.7 microF (8khz?). So the mid bass has a giant sweep to cover due to the low slope crossover on the tweeter.
- Variable DSP loudness contours over the volume range.
- I’m guessing the EQ settings recommended will not be applicable to us.

 

[MaherSupra]

Take a look at this thread on the F30.
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1329316

It isn’t apples to apples, but a lot of what is going on processing wise with that HK system applies to the Supra from a philosophy standpoint. Given that you seem to be the most gung-ho at staying closer to stock, I figured it would help you.

- Subsonic filter on sub-woofer output
- Low pass on subwoofers around 100Hz but due to the boosted HK house curve, it is likely outputting meaningful mid bass at 200Hz
- the 4” are high passed at somewhere around 150Hz as best I can tell from electrical spectrum.
- DSP makes this have some guesswork
- the tweeters have a 6db high pass at 4.7 microF (8khz?). So the mid bass has a giant sweep to cover due to the low slope crossover on the tweeter.
- Variable DSP loudness contours over the volume range.
- I’m guessing the EQ settings recommended will not be applicable to us.

I totally understand lol! Speaking of DSP and crossovers the shops used this amplifier by JL Audio
VX1000/5i
5 Ch. Class D System Amplifier with Integrated DSP, 1000 W. It was installed behind the passenger seat.

 

[tadda]

Take a look at this thread on the F30.
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1329316

It isn’t apples to apples, but a lot of what is going on processing wise with that HK system applies to the Supra from a philosophy standpoint. Given that you seem to be the most gung-ho at staying closer to stock, I figured it would help you.

- Subsonic filter on sub-woofer output
- Low pass on subwoofers around 100Hz but due to the boosted HK house curve, it is likely outputting meaningful mid bass at 200Hz
- the 4” are high passed at somewhere around 150Hz as best I can tell from electrical spectrum.
- DSP makes this have some guesswork
- the tweeters have a 6db high pass at 4.7 microF (8khz?). So the mid bass has a giant sweep to cover due to the low slope crossover on the tweeter.
- Variable DSP loudness contours over the volume range.
- I’m guessing the EQ settings recommended will not be applicable to us.

Good read and re-enforces many of the areas relative to the Supras' HK sound system which BMW uses as well....And nice to see posts there by what I assume are experienced audio engineers and enthusiasts...

Yeah, the Electrical Engineer and audio enthusiast in me loves a challenge and early on I discovered a few issues with our audio system that could be easily improved upon...The basic components of our Supras' sound system are actually very good...It's the application and some design issues that just require further attention for a relatively low cost...

Clearly there are differences in the environments and speaker placements between the BMW referenced in that thread and our Supra which are reflected in their EQ settings...For example I saw most EQ setting had 1khz really raised up whereas I found in our Supra that 1khz really needed to be attenuated which also takes into account environment and personal preferences of coarse...

A big take away, which I also agree with, is how selecting "surround" enhancement added to the phase distortion which resulted in reduced sound clarity...This is one of the first things I turned off and the system clarity was noticeably improved...

I had a chuckle when an "old time" audio guy mentioned the loudness button that was prevalent on most audio systems in the old days...Now they incorporate that DSP feature into the amplifier where is "loudness" curve / contour is volume dependant...Most AMPs tend to flatten their loudness curves as volume is increased and the take away here is to always adjust EQ at preferred listening volume...for me that's around 60~65%...

I think my next project will be focusing on filters and crossovers applied to the door speakers (mids and tweeters)...

Good stuff and thanks for posting!

 

[JasonO]

I totally understand lol! Speaking of DSP and crossovers the shops used this amplifier by JL Audio
VX1000/5i
5 Ch. Class D System Amplifier with Integrated DSP, 1000 W. It was installed behind the passenger seat.

I recall from your other thread. Please don’t take my approach as saying yours was useless, inferior, etc. I wanted to keep full integration, and at the time, harnesses for that also required some reprogramming of the head unit by BMW from what I’ve read, and they were the cost of some installs. I highly doubted Toyota could do it, so I just had my subs replaced and used the same location you are using for my XD amp.

The VX with C5s should be an easy install for shops to DSP as JL sponsored a Supra with that setup on a VX amp. The tuning file is available on their dealer network from what my installer said. That should mean the file has been poured over by multiple eyes to make up for the 4”s normal design range along with placement deficiencies in the stock system. So I’m sure your system sounds great, just if I have to go that way, the next steps I’m taking will need to be anyhow.

 

[JasonO]

Good read and re-enforces many of the areas relative to the Supras' HK sound system which BMW uses as well....And nice to see posts there by what I assume are experienced audio engineers and enthusiasts...

Yeah, the Electrical Engineer and audio enthusiast in me loves a challenge and early on I discovered a few issues with our audio system that could be easily improved upon...The basic components of our Supras' sound system are actually very good...It's the application and some design issues that just require further attention for a relatively low cost...

Clearly there are differences in the environments and speaker placements between the BMW referenced in that thread and our Supra which are reflected in their EQ settings...For example I saw most EQ setting had 1khz really raised up whereas I found in our Supra that 1khz really needed to be attenuated which also takes into account environment and personal preferences of coarse...

A big take away, which I also agree with, is how selecting "surround" enhancement added to the phase distortion which resulted in reduced sound clarity...This is one of the first things I turned off and the system clarity was noticeably improved...

I had a chuckle when an "old time" audio guy mentioned the loudness button that was prevalent on most audio systems in the old days...Now they incorporate that DSP feature into the amplifier where is "loudness" curve / contour is volume dependant...Most AMPs tend to flatten their loudness curves as volume is increased and the take away here is to always adjust EQ at preferred listening volume...for me that's around 60~65%...

I think my next project will be focusing on filters and crossovers applied to the door speakers (mids and tweeters)...

Good stuff and thanks for posting!

Billfitz is Bill Fitzmaurice. When I ran down the rabbit hole I wound up on another forum full of similar level guys bitching about everything wrong with even good speakers because of reasons. Lots of knowledge there, just lots of griping too.

The amp issue is what gets me. On the interstate I’m usually around 2/3rds volume and changing bass voicing is easy enough as I have a knob installed to control the amp, but it still aggravates me.

We seem to be going in a similar direction so here is my plan:

Disable center channel speakers and install some Audiofrog GS40c crossovers for the doors.

Use quality CLD on doors, some cabin, and all rear metal surfaces. 33-50% coverage except for doors where it will be closer to 100%. One layer of SM600L thinsulate between all outer skin (sans floors) and cabin (75 ft^2), maybe some in dash. Decouple as needed with 5mm neoprene and butyl rope. Add MLV (16 ft^2) with decoupler on floor of trunk as thinsulate won’t work there.

I’m leaving the roof and drivers cabin floor mostly alone as if what I do fixes the problem it saves a huge headache of ripping the entire cab apart.

 

[tadda]

Billfitz is Bill Fitzmaurice. When I ran down the rabbit hole I wound up on another forum full of similar level guys bitching about everything wrong with even good speakers because of reasons. Lots of knowledge there, just lots of griping too.

The amp issue is what gets me. On the interstate I’m usually around 2/3rds volume and changing bass voicing is easy enough as I have a knob installed to control the amp, but it still aggravates me.

We seem to be going in a similar direction so here is my plan:

Disable center channel speakers and install some Audiofrog GS40c crossovers for the doors.

Use quality CLD on doors, some cabin, and all rear metal surfaces. 33-50% coverage except for doors where it will be closer to 100%. One layer of SM600L thinsulate between all outer skin (sans floors) and cabin (75 ft^2), maybe some in dash. Decouple as needed with 5mm neoprene and butyl rope. Add MLV (16 ft^2) with decoupler on floor of trunk as thinsulate won’t work there.

I’m leaving the roof and drivers cabin floor mostly alone as if what I do fixes the problem it saves a huge headache of ripping the entire cab apart.

Audiofrog GS410C Crossover

Any ideas as to where would you mount the crossover boxes? They are relatively large...

Dimensions:

• Width: 3.994"
• Height: 1.784"
• Depth: 5.880"

By any chance do you have the pinout IDs for the OE Amp?

 

[JasonO]

Audiofrog GS410C Crossover

Any ideas as to where would you mount the crossover boxes? They are relatively large...

Dimensions:

• Width: 3.994"
• Height: 1.784"
• Depth: 5.880"

By any chance do you have the pinout IDs for the OE Amp?

If I cannot find a good place under the dash on each side that isn’t visible, I will mount behind the driver’s seat with the rear of my equipment. I’d prefer under dash as the runs will be shorter to the speakers. I’m not a fan of mounting them in the door as they would need to go in the inner baffle that isn’t waterproof.

You could use some another crossover. I only went with Audiofrog as I was able to get an open box set for a little more than one JL c3 crossover. The fact that their gear is top notch only sealed the deal for me.

You may be able to find a deal on hertz/Audison crossovers on eBay. They mostly are 6db/12db LP/HP, but they have some 12/12s. JL c3 crossovers would work as well, but they aren’t cheap for what you are getting. Most other crossovers on eBay are overpriced, unpublished data, or sketchy companies.

I do not have the amp pin out.

EDIT: I think they can fit on the cabin side of the membrane. there appears to be space under the armrest area. I won’t know for sure until I pull everything off. I tried watching TJHunts Bavsound video, but it was done terribly so I don’t know for sure.

 

[JasonO]

For those of you who want your cake and will pay to eat it to, you can install a mObridge converter. This will replace the HK amp on the MOST bus, allow for custom DSP (EQ, pass filters, and time delay) to be outputted on ten channels of RCAs.

All head unit and factory control features will work. Steering volume, bass, treble, and the ten channel eq will be overlaid over the new DSP settings that are user programmable. A delayed remote out is also supplied. You will not need a separate volume control like you do when running a traditional DSP/amp combo.

https://mobridge.us/product/da-g2-pro-most25/

If anyone is ready to drop serious money on an install that uses an aftermarket DSP as the speakers are being replaced, this would be a very attractive option. For several hundred more, you keep all integration, volume and tone controls while getting a full function DSP with ten channels of outputs. The Supra is compatible to some versions.

This is more than I want, but it seems no one knows the option is there and most installers are not aware of it.

 

[MaherSupra]

For those of you who want your cake and will pay to eat it to, you can install a mObridge converter. This will replace the HK amp on the MOST bus, allow for custom DSP (EQ, pass filters, and time delay) to be outputted on ten channels of RCAs.

All head unit and factory control features will work. Steering volume, bass, treble, and the ten channel eq will be overlaid over the new DSP settings that are user programmable. A delayed remote out is also supplied. You will not need a separate volume control like you do when running a traditional DSP/amp combo.

https://mobridge.us/product/da-g2-pro-most25/

If anyone is ready to drop serious money on an install that uses an aftermarket DSP as the speakers are being replaced, this would be a very attractive option. For several hundred more, you keep all integration, volume and tone controls while getting a full function DSP with ten channels of outputs. The Supra is compatible to some versions.

This is more than I want, but it seems no one knows the option is there and most installers are not aware of it.[/QUOTE

How much is it?! The JL Audio amplifier/DSP in my car has it all and it’s sound great.

 

[JasonO]

$600 to 900 depending on model.

 

[JasonO]

Audiofrog GS410C Crossover

Any ideas as to where would you mount the crossover boxes? They are relatively large...

Dimensions:

• Width: 3.994"
• Height: 1.784"
• Depth: 5.880"

By any chance do you have the pinout IDs for the OE Amp?

These will not fit in the dry side of the door but any crossover has to go in the door. I am taking mine apart to fit. The flex conduit ends in a pinned connector, so additional wires cannot properly be ran into the door without a bunch of hoops to jump through or getting really sketchy.

If you want to minimize cutting harnesses, you will need a pair of male and two pairs of female BMW speaker harness connectors. Soldering can get around some of it, but likely not all. You can use BMW Y connectors are on eBay for cheap that can be chopped up for $5 each, but they come from China, so planning ahead will be necessary. With that said, for ten bucks, one will have all the connectors required to leave factory wiring intact.

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