From Supra to G87 M2 or FL5 CTR or GR86/BRZ?

[Litfuse]

I bought my new manual Supra two months ago. I have owned numerous Miatas, and recently had a GR86 and a CTR. The CTR is a very capable vehicle that offers great usability. The problem is that it is sterile. Honda needs to inject some rawness in it. The GR86 is a hoot around town. Light, responsive and agile. It reminds me in certain ways of Japanese sports cars of the 1990s. To me, like a Miata, it’s a great third car. You get use to the power and you realize the chassis could handle about 50-75hp to make an outstanding vehicle.

I have owned over70 cars, many being sports cars. The one I wish I never sold was my Lotus Elise. I know this was not on your list, and if you are willing to looked used, they offer a driving experience barely any car offers.

Sponsored

 

[BMWAF]

Epic downgrade: GR86/BRZ
Downgrade: FL5 CTR
Upgrade: M2

 

[Razors Edge]

I’m still trying to figure out your supposed fuel starvation issue at stock levels you keep talking about. Then you said you’ve never taken it on a track. WHAT THE ACTUAL HELL?

I’m running close to 500 hp with E45 and I’ve never seen my car have fuel starvation issues. Want to talk about fuel starvation on sweeping right turns? Go lookup the GR86, I have one, that’s my daily, 2023 Special Edition. That’s well documented with engines going kaboom and Toyota having to warranty them but being pissy about it. I have never seen a single forum post or group post on a GR Supra having fuel starvation issues at stock levels, not until your above 500+ HP, which you’re not even close to.


If you’re talking about a car adding a Wagner intake manifold, port injection, E-50+ and then having to add a LPFP and possibly a HPFP, then say that, but that’s 600+ WHP and a different animal then you’re referring to.

Someone tell me or add what he typed is wrong please, because otherwise that’s crazy talk for a “someone told me story” and now I’m saying it’s true.

 

[i3igpete]

This is precisely why i asked what issue, specifically, the m2 swap would resolve. The FL/FK and GR86 have design issues that i would consider way more severe, so i assumed that OP didn't research them yet

 

[Lorre]

Overheating and fuel starvation are my top 2. I haven’t fully explored suspension issues with the M2.
I typically do 12 or so track weekends a year at tracks like COTA (maybe no longer), Eagles Canyon, Ozarks, Barber, Road Atlanta, and Watkins Glen. I hope to get back to VIR next year. I also hope to experience some more tracks on the east coast next summer/fall.
The Supra is a beautiful car with a lovely powertrain. And it’s not that heavy by today’s standards. For it to be track worthy for me it needs at least an intake manifold, a viable solution to fuel starvation, suspension parts to add negative camber and probably more caster, and the usual track prep. The Supra won over the M2 primarily because the M2 is so heavy.
I also considered an Emira, but Lotus service is not easily found.

I think the cooling capabilities are miles ahead of the CTR. Fuel starvation? Maybe on more serious track build set ups. But I believe the G8X cars get it as well.

The GR86 has its own issues like oil starvation and having too much sealant in the oil pick up system which can cause problems as well.

Out of the the box the M2 has a slight edge in the cooling system due to the air to oil cooler at the bottom of the car.

Verus Engineering developed an air to oil cooler which replaces one of the aux radiator in for it and has been proven to work in reducing oil and coolant temps.

As for the others that you mentioned such as suspension and intake manifold, i think if you’re gonna be tracking your M2 hard, these are items that you will eventually upgrade as well.

 

[jmikes]

Realistically M2 is the only actually good option to swap to, the other two have other glaring issues, way less potential than the M2/Supra (unless you just wanna autocross), and quite frankly I wouldn't like the step-down in interior quality. The GR86 would give you some nice money back at least, but the CTR is a little pricey for what it is imo.

The M2 has its issues too of course, especially with the weight (and looks...), but if you want "Supra but more practical and comfortable and with back seats" the M2 fits the bill pretty decently. And the M2 has x-drive now if you wanted to buy new and run AWD.

 

[Mdstx]

For those who are in denial of fuel starvation issues:
https://www.supramkv.com/threads/at-what-power-does-fuel-starvation-start.36521/

 

[i3igpete]

Nobody is in denial. I have hit it on low speed, lower power, off-camber situations (gingerman turn 3). What I'm trying to understand is why you picked the alternatives you did.

 

[Mdstx]

I bought my new manual Supra two months ago. I have owned numerous Miatas, and recently had a GR86 and a CTR. The CTR is a very capable vehicle that offers great usability. The problem is that it is sterile. Honda needs to inject some rawness in it. The GR86 is a hoot around town. Light, responsive and agile. It reminds me in certain ways of Japanese sports cars of the 1990s. To me, like a Miata, it’s a great third car. You get use to the power and you realize the chassis could handle about 50-75hp to make an outstanding vehicle.

I have owned over70 cars, many being sports cars. The one I wish I never sold was my Lotus Elise. I know this was not on your list, and if you are willing to looked used, they offer a driving experience barely any car offers.

Thank you for the great info.

Sounds like we share DNA.

70+ cars owned. Mostly sports cars.

Lotuses are sublime, but my friends who own them have warned me about service. On track they are amazing. I’ve ridden with friends on track in an Exige, Elise, Evora GT and Emira. All were amazing.

My ideal car today would be a modern e36 M3 sedan. Lightweight, balanced, practical. So sad that the M2 is so heavy.

 

[Mdstx]

Nobody is in denial. I have hit it on low speed, lower power, off-camber situations (gingerman turn 3). What I'm trying to understand is why you picked the alternatives you did.

I understand that question.

First, I want something with a manual transmission.
Second, I want more room and more power than my NC Miatas.
Third, I want to be able to take it to the track when I am not towing to the track.
Fourth, I want it to be fun around town.


To me the M2 is the obvious alternative to the Supra. It’s just really heavy. But I have been told/read it manages the weight well. The GR86 is very Miata-like with more room and a bit more power. It’s inexpensive and they’re capable on track. In the past, a Civic Type R would not have been on my radar. But, it keeps popping up as a possibility for around town and track. Ross Bentley did One Lap in one. My friend who drives quite well took me out in his prior gen CTR and it was impressive. I haven’t tracked front wheel drive cars much at all and that seemed like an itch to scratch.

 

[kaj]

Thanks for the explanation. I’m happy to hear your experience was positive.

To be clear, I haven’t made any modifications to my Supra yet and I have not tracked it yet. I was about to pull the trigger on some track upgrades when I learned of the fuel starvation issue. The heat management issue is fairly well documented in almost any discussion about tracking the Mk5. My research (online research, consulting with race engineers who work on client’s track Supras, and chatting with those drivers who are tracking their Supras at the many track events I attend) has led me to the conclusions I stated. Frankly, if you search this forum you’ll find that my conclusions are supported by the experiences of others here.

Anyhow, thanks for your input. The conversation in this thread has been good and has me thinking about my next move.

Cheers

Good luck with whichever way you decide to go! I guess I'll consider myself lucky. I'm considering another, so hopefully lightening will strike twice.

 

[BMWAF]

Firstly, the Miata is the most overrated car in history.. second only to the 86/BRZ.

Secondly, it seems like every comment you make in this thread is prefaced with "I have read/heard" and yet you are very quick to dismiss all the posts that you are reading/hearing on this forum that don't agree with your own opinion.

Good luck on your journey. The M2 is great and in most ways, a solid upgrade.. or so I have heard.

 

[Lorre]

I understand that question.

First, I want something with a manual transmission.
Second, I want more room and more power than my NC Miatas.
Third, I want to be able to take it to the track when I am not towing to the track.
Fourth, I want it to be fun around town.


To me the M2 is the obvious alternative to the Supra. It’s just really heavy. But I have been told/read it manages the weight well. The GR86 is very Miata-like with more room and a bit more power. It’s inexpensive and they’re capable on track. In the past, a Civic Type R would not have been on my radar. But, it keeps popping up as a possibility for around town and track. Ross Bentley did One Lap in one. My friend who drives quite well took me out in his prior gen CTR and it was impressive. I haven’t tracked front wheel drive cars much at all and that seemed like an itch to scratch.

The four criteria seems to point to the Manual Supra if you ask me.

The M2 would obviously bring to the table useable rear seats on top of the four points you stated (but I’m not sure an M2 is more fun than a Supra in town)

It feels like you don’t really know what you want at this point If you‘re considering an M2 but also feel like scratching that itch for a front wheel drive track car….

Good luck with whichever car you go with.

 

[i3igpete]

Sounds like you have multiple criteria to weigh. Time to create a decision matrix then. You need to decide whether each row is the stock or aftermarket/modified state.


| Track Metric (Modified Build Focus) | Toyota GR86 (ZD8) | Honda Civic Type R (FL5) | Toyota GR Supra (A90/A91) | BMW M2 (G87) |
| :--- | :--- | :--- | :--- | :--- |
| Thermal Ceiling | - | - | - | - |
| Aerodynamic Limit | - | - | - | - |
| Brake Thermal Capacity | - | - | - | - |
| ECU Unlock and Tuning Complexity | - | - | - | - |
| Engine & Oil Robustness | - | - | - | - |
| Drivetrain Cooling | - | - | - | - |
| Suspension Geometry | - | - | - | - |
| Bushing & Bearing Wear | - | - | - | - |
| Consumables Cost | - | - | - | - |

 

[Mdstx]

The four criteria seems to point to the Manual Supra if you ask me.

The M2 would obviously bring to the table useable rear seats on top of the four points you stated (but I’m not sure an M2 is more fun than a Supra in town)

It feels like you don’t really know what you want at this point If you‘re considering an M2 but also feel like scratching that itch for a front wheel drive track car….

Good luck with whichever car you go with.

You’ve definitely hit the nail on the head.
I am leaning towards an M2. And perhaps a year after getting it I’ll be having similar thoughts.

Sponsored